5 ms·

Why not matrix?

by lrvick 6y ago

Why not matrix?

y2bd 6y ago
AFAIK there are no Matrix clients with voice channels.
pyr0hu 6y ago
Discord is free, no need for maintenance and much easier to onboard non-tech friends IMO.
- kevincox 6y ago
  There are also many free Matrix severs. But I agree that Discord has much more UX polish right now. (Especially around onboarding).
rakoo 6y ago
Matrix the protocol is not there yet. Element, its main client, lacks too many features to have the same experience: - No concept of servers (in discord parlance). Its equivalent (matrix spaces, in https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/matthew/msc1772/proposals/1772-groups-as-rooms.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/matthew/msc177...) is in progress - No included audio/video calls. You have to link them manually and use a third-party stack, such as Jitsi - Even if you have Jitsi the experience is not the same. Discord's experience is like a chat room, except with audio and video. In Element it's more like a standard call
- lbotos 6y ago
  > - No included audio/video calls. You have to link them manually and use a third-party stack, such as Jitsi To be explicit, no group audio/video. I run my own Matrix server for my partner and I and it uses webRTC based audio out of the box for 1:1 calls which we use every day, and sometimes video. No Jitsi enabled in my config. (I only share this so other readers can gauge if Matrix can meet their needs.)
  - kevincox 6y ago
    It is also worth noting that the WebRTC calls are E2E encrypted and look fantastic as they are often peer-to-peer so you can get an amazing connection if you have the bandwidth available.
    - pkulak 6y ago
      I'm blown away by the audio and video quality of my Matrix calls. I always thought it was because, as I run my own server, there's no bandwidth limit, but I hadn't considered the whole peer-to-peer thing.
  - miketery 6y ago
    What client do you use on your devices to talk via the server?
    - lbotos 6y ago
      For now element, but I hope to add the functionality to Ditto and switch to that.
  - boojums 6y ago
    Mind sharing the Synapse configuration changes you made to enable the audio/video calls over peer-to-peer?
    - lbotos 6y ago
      I'm using https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy and I can't recall off of the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure out of the box the coturn server will make webRTC "just work". I also explicitly made sure jitsi was disabled to make sure it wasn't using it, and yeah, this ansible playbook is game changing. I tried to run Matrix 3 different ways before giving up and using the playbook.
echelon 6y ago
My username and favorite aliases were taken. Discord allows anyone to share the same username. It appends a nearly invisible hash to disambiguate, and you can even change it. Discord does usernames right.
- toolz 6y ago
  hmm, so on public discord servers if someone copies my nickname and pretends to be me, someone might not easily notice? Seems like a pretty readily used vulnerability. I remember back in high school on AIM someone made a username very similar to mine and said some nasty things to a girl I was talking to - she told me to stop talking to her and I didn't figure out why until years later. I imagine the same exploit could be done more easily if you can use the same username and discord actively tries to hide the hash. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive since impersonation has hurt me, though.
  - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
    Depends on the setup of the Discord server. Many servers have different "roles" created, though often they're just nothing more than a title and a different color for your name when chatting on the server. If you don't have the default role on your server, then anybody would probably notice the fake person is a fake because they'd have the default role color. Second, servers can require that your account have a verified phone number for you to join or chat on it, which raises the barrier a bit for creating fake accounts. Finally, even if they join a mutual server and send you a private message, when you view the message, you won't see the private message history of the conversation with the real account, giving away that it's at the very least a new account. Overall, it's harder to impersonate on Discord than it is on AIM, but still certainly not impossible.
  - kemitche 6y ago
    I'd argue the opposite - it's harder to get away with impersonation. In the AIM situation, users go in "knowing" that usernames are unique, so if you see a message from user abc123, you "know" it's that person. Which means user abcl23 ("el" instead of "one") can impersonate the real user. In Discord situations, (1) the user is more likely to know that usernames can be reused, since they weren't required to make a unique one to start - so they can be more cautious of impersonation attempts, and more importantly (2) the Discord devs know names can be reused/abused, and can build better mitigations if they so choose to (like e.g. putting a disclaimer at the top of any message from a user you've never contacted before, etc.)
upofadown 6y ago
Wouldn't Mumble be closer to the described use case?
- gsich 6y ago
  correct
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  Not really. Discord has both text and voice (and IIRC video) chat. Mumble is voice only, and the UX is... dated.
  - paulryanrogers 6y ago
    Second this. Recently setup Mumble server and it's clearly meant for non-visual use because of its gaming roots. Which is good when you want TTS with chat but annoying to learn and navigate. I suspect it's primary use case is push to talk voice communicate in games.
O_H_E 6y ago
Not @fish45 but as someone in a similar situation, probably because "people our age" where already using it for gaming. Simple network effects. Nobody got out of their way to compare the best alternative from a technical and privacy related perspectives. People just started using what they were used to, and now Discord is freaking emourms in that area. High school classes, university cohors (ie. CS'24), university program (ie. Electrical Engineering), specific sources...etc everybody around me is using discord.

Why not matrix?

by lrvick 6y ago

Why not matrix?

y2bd 6y ago

AFAIK there are no Matrix clients with voice channels.

pyr0hu 6y ago

Discord is free, no need for maintenance and much easier to onboard non-tech friends IMO.

kevincox 6y ago
There are also many free Matrix severs. But I agree that Discord has much more UX polish right now. (Especially around onboarding).

rakoo 6y ago

Matrix the protocol is not there yet. Element, its main client, lacks too many features to have the same experience: - No concept of servers (in discord parlance). Its equivalent (matrix spaces, in https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/matthew/msc1772/proposals/1772-groups-as-rooms.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/matthew/msc177...) is in progress - No included audio/video calls. You have to link them manually and use a third-party stack, such as Jitsi - Even if you have Jitsi the experience is not the same. Discord's experience is like a chat room, except with audio and video. In Element it's more like a standard call

lbotos 6y ago
> - No included audio/video calls. You have to link them manually and use a third-party stack, such as Jitsi To be explicit, no group audio/video. I run my own Matrix server for my partner and I and it uses webRTC based audio out of the box for 1:1 calls which we use every day, and sometimes video. No Jitsi enabled in my config. (I only share this so other readers can gauge if Matrix can meet their needs.)
- kevincox 6y ago
  It is also worth noting that the WebRTC calls are E2E encrypted and look fantastic as they are often peer-to-peer so you can get an amazing connection if you have the bandwidth available.
  - pkulak 6y ago
    I'm blown away by the audio and video quality of my Matrix calls. I always thought it was because, as I run my own server, there's no bandwidth limit, but I hadn't considered the whole peer-to-peer thing.
- miketery 6y ago
  What client do you use on your devices to talk via the server?
  - lbotos 6y ago
    For now element, but I hope to add the functionality to Ditto and switch to that.
- boojums 6y ago
  Mind sharing the Synapse configuration changes you made to enable the audio/video calls over peer-to-peer?
  - lbotos 6y ago
    I'm using https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy and I can't recall off of the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure out of the box the coturn server will make webRTC "just work". I also explicitly made sure jitsi was disabled to make sure it wasn't using it, and yeah, this ansible playbook is game changing. I tried to run Matrix 3 different ways before giving up and using the playbook.

echelon 6y ago

My username and favorite aliases were taken. Discord allows anyone to share the same username. It appends a nearly invisible hash to disambiguate, and you can even change it. Discord does usernames right.

toolz 6y ago
hmm, so on public discord servers if someone copies my nickname and pretends to be me, someone might not easily notice? Seems like a pretty readily used vulnerability. I remember back in high school on AIM someone made a username very similar to mine and said some nasty things to a girl I was talking to - she told me to stop talking to her and I didn't figure out why until years later. I imagine the same exploit could be done more easily if you can use the same username and discord actively tries to hide the hash. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive since impersonation has hurt me, though.
- Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
  Depends on the setup of the Discord server. Many servers have different "roles" created, though often they're just nothing more than a title and a different color for your name when chatting on the server. If you don't have the default role on your server, then anybody would probably notice the fake person is a fake because they'd have the default role color. Second, servers can require that your account have a verified phone number for you to join or chat on it, which raises the barrier a bit for creating fake accounts. Finally, even if they join a mutual server and send you a private message, when you view the message, you won't see the private message history of the conversation with the real account, giving away that it's at the very least a new account. Overall, it's harder to impersonate on Discord than it is on AIM, but still certainly not impossible.
- kemitche 6y ago
  I'd argue the opposite - it's harder to get away with impersonation. In the AIM situation, users go in "knowing" that usernames are unique, so if you see a message from user abc123, you "know" it's that person. Which means user abcl23 ("el" instead of "one") can impersonate the real user. In Discord situations, (1) the user is more likely to know that usernames can be reused, since they weren't required to make a unique one to start - so they can be more cautious of impersonation attempts, and more importantly (2) the Discord devs know names can be reused/abused, and can build better mitigations if they so choose to (like e.g. putting a disclaimer at the top of any message from a user you've never contacted before, etc.)

upofadown 6y ago

Wouldn't Mumble be closer to the described use case?

gsich 6y ago
correct
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
Not really. Discord has both text and voice (and IIRC video) chat. Mumble is voice only, and the UX is... dated.
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  Second this. Recently setup Mumble server and it's clearly meant for non-visual use because of its gaming roots. Which is good when you want TTS with chat but annoying to learn and navigate. I suspect it's primary use case is push to talk voice communicate in games.

O_H_E 6y ago

Not @fish45 but as someone in a similar situation, probably because "people our age" where already using it for gaming. Simple network effects. Nobody got out of their way to compare the best alternative from a technical and privacy related perspectives. People just started using what they were used to, and now Discord is freaking emourms in that area. High school classes, university cohors (ie. CS'24), university program (ie. Electrical Engineering), specific sources...etc everybody around me is using discord.