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Ah yes, preventing unemployed people from starving is bad, we should pay them less. Here's a radical concept: wages are too low. People aren't applying to you

Ah yes, preventing unemployed people from starving is bad, we should pay them less. Here's a radical concept: wages are too low. People aren't applying to your job because you're not offering enough money. Pay people more. You claim to believe in a free market, then complain when nobody wants to work for you for starvation wages.

logicchains 5y ago
Money doesn't grow on trees. If there were two shops offering you the exact same breakfast, but one was charging 50% because it paid its employees more, would you patronise it? Even if you would, the majority of people wouldn't, hence why anywhere that charged so much more would go out of business, because people are much more willing to moralise about other people's businesses than put their money where their mouth is and support companies that pay their workers more.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  Indeed, it's very easy for outsiders to just declare "you should pay more" without knowing anything about a business' finances or revenue.
  - JohnWhigham 5y ago
    This back-and-forth has been getting very common regarding American businesses in recent years though. Without a doubt it's because the rest of the developing world are now having their middle class booms, and American purchasing power is being eroded. And given the avarice of corporations and the negligence of our federal government, it won't be getting better.
  - Balgair 5y ago
    Forgive my misunderstandings, but if the business can't make ends meet with their labor and income costs, then it sounds to me like that is not a sustainable business in the market they are in. Granted, if enough of these shops then go under, the supply of jobs will decrease, and then the wages will drop (and many other market effects). Capitalism isn't even close to a perfect system for allocating these resources, but it does seem to be one of the best we have found thus far.
- erikpukinskis 5y ago
  If you can’t sustain your employees, your business model is broken and and you should shut down and get a job or start over. But to answer your question, yes I would. I voluntarily tip well above the amount you’re describing at every restaurant I eat at for this exact reason.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  Money doesn’t grow on trees, but you’re pinning it on one arbitrary part of a very large system. Why doesn’t that mean the business’s rents are too high, or that property values are inflated, or that certain whole sectors have too low prices, or even that maybe we don’t need a coffee shop every twenty feet? If a coffee shop can’t sustain livable wages, there are a ton of moving parts that could adapt. I imagine the problem is credit. It’s artificially hard to lower that shop’s rent because the landlord still has to deal with their mortgage price (and so on around the whole economy).
- seanp2k2 5y ago
  > If there were two shops offering you the exact same breakfast, but one was charging 50% because it paid its employees more, would you patronise it? I do not believe that this situation truly exists, so this argument falls apart for me. Also: many people are willing to pay more for “Made in USA”, even significantly more. Sewing and textile work is definitely more expensive here, and sometimes comparable quality can be found through overseas manufacturing (e.g. Arcteryx, Mystery Ranch). There’s room in the market for both, and the products are different enough for reasons other than some are MIUSA and others are not. In other words, breakfast and coffee are not fungible commodities.

logicchains 5y ago

Money doesn't grow on trees. If there were two shops offering you the exact same breakfast, but one was charging 50% because it paid its employees more, would you patronise it? Even if you would, the majority of people wouldn't, hence why anywhere that charged so much more would go out of business, because people are much more willing to moralise about other people's businesses than put their money where their mouth is and support companies that pay their workers more.

BitwiseFool 5y ago
Indeed, it's very easy for outsiders to just declare "you should pay more" without knowing anything about a business' finances or revenue.
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  This back-and-forth has been getting very common regarding American businesses in recent years though. Without a doubt it's because the rest of the developing world are now having their middle class booms, and American purchasing power is being eroded. And given the avarice of corporations and the negligence of our federal government, it won't be getting better.
- Balgair 5y ago
  Forgive my misunderstandings, but if the business can't make ends meet with their labor and income costs, then it sounds to me like that is not a sustainable business in the market they are in. Granted, if enough of these shops then go under, the supply of jobs will decrease, and then the wages will drop (and many other market effects). Capitalism isn't even close to a perfect system for allocating these resources, but it does seem to be one of the best we have found thus far.
erikpukinskis 5y ago
If you can’t sustain your employees, your business model is broken and and you should shut down and get a job or start over. But to answer your question, yes I would. I voluntarily tip well above the amount you’re describing at every restaurant I eat at for this exact reason.
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
Money doesn’t grow on trees, but you’re pinning it on one arbitrary part of a very large system. Why doesn’t that mean the business’s rents are too high, or that property values are inflated, or that certain whole sectors have too low prices, or even that maybe we don’t need a coffee shop every twenty feet? If a coffee shop can’t sustain livable wages, there are a ton of moving parts that could adapt. I imagine the problem is credit. It’s artificially hard to lower that shop’s rent because the landlord still has to deal with their mortgage price (and so on around the whole economy).
seanp2k2 5y ago
> If there were two shops offering you the exact same breakfast, but one was charging 50% because it paid its employees more, would you patronise it? I do not believe that this situation truly exists, so this argument falls apart for me. Also: many people are willing to pay more for “Made in USA”, even significantly more. Sewing and textile work is definitely more expensive here, and sometimes comparable quality can be found through overseas manufacturing (e.g. Arcteryx, Mystery Ranch). There’s room in the market for both, and the products are different enough for reasons other than some are MIUSA and others are not. In other words, breakfast and coffee are not fungible commodities.