7 ms·

Employee-status may come with certain benefits, but it also comes with many drawbacks and burdens for the employee. For me, and probably many on this board, th

Employee-status may come with certain benefits, but it also comes with many drawbacks and burdens for the employee. For me, and probably many on this board, the biggest risk is "works-for-hire". Under US law, contractors have strong legal protections of their own intellectual protection. Whereas it's much easier for a W-2 employer to claim IP made in personal time. I don't really care about healthcare of unemployment insurance. I'm well compensated enough that I can buy my own high-deductible insurance and have more than enough assets to feed myself between jobs. Forcing freelancers into W-2 status is just another example of the government screwing people over "for their own good".

RHSeeger 6y ago
> Forcing freelancers into W-2 status is just another example of the government screwing people over "for their own good". It's the government screwing _some_ people over for the good of everyone else, where it's presumed that "good of everyone else" is worth more to society than what is lost by those that get screwed over by it. At least, that's generally the intent.
- yaml-ops-guy 6y ago
  I’m very glad we’re only screwing over “some” people, good to have that cleared up, thank you for that...it’s still an abominable practice to put any amount of laborers through.
  - threatofrain 6y ago
    Government policy is inherently concerned with those kinds of moral tradeoffs. Vaccines and lockdowns naturally pose such questions.
  - RHSeeger 6y ago
    Are you of the belief that there are a set of policies/laws that result in everyone being happy and nobody being screwed over? Such a thing is not realistic. Every system of laws results in some people suffering for the benefit of others. The better law system result in less suffering for more benefit.
- thereisnospork 6y ago
  Considering that the people it was supposed to help are being fired every 2 years for 6 months I'd say the governments plan to help some people hasn't and caught people like the GP in the crossfire. Quelle surprise.
- syshum 6y ago
  Ahh the old "Greater Good", the most evil phrase in the English Language Anyone attempting to do anything for "the greater good" should be viewed with suspicion and disrespect as most at best what they are attempting to do no matter the intent will fail and harm more people than it will help At worst is it just a shield to cover their immoral actions, or thirst for power Every person that values freedom, individuality, and prosperity should reject any policy or law that is based on a "greater good" narrative
  - throwaways885 6y ago
    > Every person that values freedom, individuality, and prosperity should reject any policy or law that is based on a "greater good" narrative Curious what you think about COVID lockdowns then
    - syshum 6y ago
      Should be very clear, I oppose government mandated lock downs.
      - SiempreViernes 6y ago
        What do you think about defence spending?
        syshum 6y ago
        That is more complicated, but I take a traditionally libertarian view, opposing world policing actual defense is acceptable, actual defense being something akin to a slightly more powerful coast guard. But going item by item on the list of government actions would be rather pointless, politically I fall somewhere between Anarcho-Capitalism and Geo-Libertarianism
        AlgorithmicTime 6y ago
        We do entirely too much of it. A decently sized and survivable nuclear counter-strike force to be unleashed on anyone who attacks our nation is sufficient.
- AlgorithmicTime 6y ago
  There's no need to screw these people over - simply more exactly specify the policy to address the actual issue.
- walshemj 6y ago
  Its more having a fake second class worker which benefits massively the employer and not real self employed people.
ketamine__ 6y ago
> Whereas it's much easier for a W-2 employer to claim IP made in personal time. I've heard this mentioned a lot but how often does it happen and how much of a risk is it? Employees developing IP in personal time doesn't seem like it would be that common.
- hirsin 6y ago
  "This project happens to be owned by Google" is common for a reason.
  - ketamine__ 6y ago
    I don't understand your response.
    - Larrikin 6y ago
      As a Google employee, Google owns everything you make even in your free time unless you go through some kind of process. Never worked there so don't know the details but have had it confirmed from other Google engineers. Some other companies got this idea as well, but it's usually very easy to get that removed from an offer.
      - Dahoon 6y ago
        That's because the US is so scared of (real) unions. This would never be allowed in most of the western world outside the states. I have never even encountered something like it outside of comments and blog posts by Americans. A lot here seem to be very pro contractor work. Then this is them reaping what they sow. Contractors and Workers rights are like oil and water.
gkop 6y ago
Or, your state could protect W-2 employees’ IP developed on personal time and equipment, as California does. You are barking up the wrong tree.
newacct583 6y ago
> Employee-status may come with certain benefits, but it also comes with many drawbacks and burdens for the employee. Not to the employees in question. Clearly the frame and interview content of the linked article is that these employees WANT to be permanent employees. But they're not allowed to be because their employer wants the flexibility to terminate them at any time. The fact that the two year contract exists is just a side effect. Yes, there are real people who want to do contract work. They exist, though it's relatively rare and clustered in careers (software is one) where short term work makes sense. But that's not who we're talking about here. These are datacenter maintenance folks, they want steady work. And off topic, but: > I don't really care about healthcare of unemployment insurance. This is something only ever said by young people who have never been sick (or had a family member suffer from) with a career-threatening condition. Yes, in your 20's it sounds like self-insurance is totally doable. Wait until you have four dependents or until you need to arrange for a parents' surprise retirement.
- taurath 6y ago
  I'll second that. I know many people stuck in the Microsoft forever-contractor hell (QA, Project Management, etc) and all of them want to be employees. They've worked there longer than most current employees in their area. They get 40-50% of what Microsoft pays for them taken by their consulting agency who has a contract with MS legal, so the only way to get hired for their positions is through that company. Its a huge financial burden for them to have to take these 6 months off. The worst part is since they're all "contract ended" so regularly, Microsoft can just say they're not reopening for many req's and many people who were waiting their 6 months to be up so they could go back are suddenly having to look for a totally different job.
GuB-42 6y ago
There is no single way of doing contract work. And the kind of thing Google does provide very little benefit to the contractor vs an employee. I don't know how it is in the US but we have the same issues in France. The law is called "délit de marchandage" and what it means, essentially, is that a contractor is treated like an employee but without the benefits of an employee. The idea of the law is that contract work is fine, but the contractor has to stay independent. For example, if I want to have an Indian do the work for me, that's my right as a contractor, my only obligation is to deliver what we agreed upon in the contract. Obviously, it is not always practical, I may want to hire a consultant for a specific task because I don't have the expertise and it is not worth hiring someone for just that one task. That's where the 2 years rule comes from. If I have to hire a consultant, full time, for 2 years, then it is not just a mission anymore and I need to hire an employee.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  Part of the problem in France is that it seems firing underperforming employees is almost impossible (multi-year process)
  - GuB-42 6y ago
    Yes, it can be very difficult. But for it to be a multi-year process, it has to be an exceptional situation. Often involving court battles, unions, etc... In practice, most employees don't want to stay in a company where they are unwanted, they may try to negotiate a bonus but rarely fight to the bitter end. But sometimes, it happens, and it is one of the things small employers fear the most. Getting fired can actually be a good deal for the employee because he will get unemployment benefits after that, whereas if you quit, you won't. But generally, you are right by saying that in France having an employee is a big commitment for a company, plus, large companies often have unions.
    - 908B64B197 6y ago
      Sounds like that legislation doesn't work at all for startups.

RHSeeger 6y ago

> Forcing freelancers into W-2 status is just another example of the government screwing people over "for their own good". It's the government screwing _some_ people over for the good of everyone else, where it's presumed that "good of everyone else" is worth more to society than what is lost by those that get screwed over by it. At least, that's generally the intent.

yaml-ops-guy 6y ago
I’m very glad we’re only screwing over “some” people, good to have that cleared up, thank you for that...it’s still an abominable practice to put any amount of laborers through.
- threatofrain 6y ago
  Government policy is inherently concerned with those kinds of moral tradeoffs. Vaccines and lockdowns naturally pose such questions.
- RHSeeger 6y ago
  Are you of the belief that there are a set of policies/laws that result in everyone being happy and nobody being screwed over? Such a thing is not realistic. Every system of laws results in some people suffering for the benefit of others. The better law system result in less suffering for more benefit.
thereisnospork 6y ago
Considering that the people it was supposed to help are being fired every 2 years for 6 months I'd say the governments plan to help some people hasn't and caught people like the GP in the crossfire. Quelle surprise.
syshum 6y ago
Ahh the old "Greater Good", the most evil phrase in the English Language Anyone attempting to do anything for "the greater good" should be viewed with suspicion and disrespect as most at best what they are attempting to do no matter the intent will fail and harm more people than it will help At worst is it just a shield to cover their immoral actions, or thirst for power Every person that values freedom, individuality, and prosperity should reject any policy or law that is based on a "greater good" narrative
- throwaways885 6y ago
  > Every person that values freedom, individuality, and prosperity should reject any policy or law that is based on a "greater good" narrative Curious what you think about COVID lockdowns then
  - syshum 6y ago
    Should be very clear, I oppose government mandated lock downs.
    - SiempreViernes 6y ago
      What do you think about defence spending?
      - syshum 6y ago
        That is more complicated, but I take a traditionally libertarian view, opposing world policing actual defense is acceptable, actual defense being something akin to a slightly more powerful coast guard. But going item by item on the list of government actions would be rather pointless, politically I fall somewhere between Anarcho-Capitalism and Geo-Libertarianism
      - AlgorithmicTime 6y ago
        We do entirely too much of it. A decently sized and survivable nuclear counter-strike force to be unleashed on anyone who attacks our nation is sufficient.
AlgorithmicTime 6y ago
There's no need to screw these people over - simply more exactly specify the policy to address the actual issue.
walshemj 6y ago
Its more having a fake second class worker which benefits massively the employer and not real self employed people.

ketamine__ 6y ago

> Whereas it's much easier for a W-2 employer to claim IP made in personal time. I've heard this mentioned a lot but how often does it happen and how much of a risk is it? Employees developing IP in personal time doesn't seem like it would be that common.

hirsin 6y ago
"This project happens to be owned by Google" is common for a reason.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  I don't understand your response.
  - Larrikin 6y ago
    As a Google employee, Google owns everything you make even in your free time unless you go through some kind of process. Never worked there so don't know the details but have had it confirmed from other Google engineers. Some other companies got this idea as well, but it's usually very easy to get that removed from an offer.
    - Dahoon 6y ago
      That's because the US is so scared of (real) unions. This would never be allowed in most of the western world outside the states. I have never even encountered something like it outside of comments and blog posts by Americans. A lot here seem to be very pro contractor work. Then this is them reaping what they sow. Contractors and Workers rights are like oil and water.

gkop 6y ago

Or, your state could protect W-2 employees’ IP developed on personal time and equipment, as California does. You are barking up the wrong tree.

newacct583 6y ago

> Employee-status may come with certain benefits, but it also comes with many drawbacks and burdens for the employee. Not to the employees in question. Clearly the frame and interview content of the linked article is that these employees WANT to be permanent employees. But they're not allowed to be because their employer wants the flexibility to terminate them at any time. The fact that the two year contract exists is just a side effect. Yes, there are real people who want to do contract work. They exist, though it's relatively rare and clustered in careers (software is one) where short term work makes sense. But that's not who we're talking about here. These are datacenter maintenance folks, they want steady work. And off topic, but: > I don't really care about healthcare of unemployment insurance. This is something only ever said by young people who have never been sick (or had a family member suffer from) with a career-threatening condition. Yes, in your 20's it sounds like self-insurance is totally doable. Wait until you have four dependents or until you need to arrange for a parents' surprise retirement.

taurath 6y ago
I'll second that. I know many people stuck in the Microsoft forever-contractor hell (QA, Project Management, etc) and all of them want to be employees. They've worked there longer than most current employees in their area. They get 40-50% of what Microsoft pays for them taken by their consulting agency who has a contract with MS legal, so the only way to get hired for their positions is through that company. Its a huge financial burden for them to have to take these 6 months off. The worst part is since they're all "contract ended" so regularly, Microsoft can just say they're not reopening for many req's and many people who were waiting their 6 months to be up so they could go back are suddenly having to look for a totally different job.

GuB-42 6y ago

There is no single way of doing contract work. And the kind of thing Google does provide very little benefit to the contractor vs an employee. I don't know how it is in the US but we have the same issues in France. The law is called "délit de marchandage" and what it means, essentially, is that a contractor is treated like an employee but without the benefits of an employee. The idea of the law is that contract work is fine, but the contractor has to stay independent. For example, if I want to have an Indian do the work for me, that's my right as a contractor, my only obligation is to deliver what we agreed upon in the contract. Obviously, it is not always practical, I may want to hire a consultant for a specific task because I don't have the expertise and it is not worth hiring someone for just that one task. That's where the 2 years rule comes from. If I have to hire a consultant, full time, for 2 years, then it is not just a mission anymore and I need to hire an employee.

908B64B197 6y ago
Part of the problem in France is that it seems firing underperforming employees is almost impossible (multi-year process)
- GuB-42 6y ago
  Yes, it can be very difficult. But for it to be a multi-year process, it has to be an exceptional situation. Often involving court battles, unions, etc... In practice, most employees don't want to stay in a company where they are unwanted, they may try to negotiate a bonus but rarely fight to the bitter end. But sometimes, it happens, and it is one of the things small employers fear the most. Getting fired can actually be a good deal for the employee because he will get unemployment benefits after that, whereas if you quit, you won't. But generally, you are right by saying that in France having an employee is a big commitment for a company, plus, large companies often have unions.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    Sounds like that legislation doesn't work at all for startups.