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The point is, obviously, that any of those events could have rapidly ended up with me dead. For doing absolutely nothing wrong. Do you really enjoy living in a

The point is, obviously, that any of those events could have rapidly ended up with me dead. For doing absolutely nothing wrong. Do you really enjoy living in a country where police have power of life and death over you and your loved ones? And what constitutes a criminal? Is speeding an executable offense for you? What about shoplifting? Selling weed? I'm curious.

noxer 6y ago
>...could have rapidly ended up with me dead. Like if you started to shoot? What exactly could have turned this around without invalidating the "For doing absolutely nothing wrong." Its kind silly statement its like "I almost got pulled over for doing absolutely nothing, imagine If I were speeding, they would have stooped me for sure, I was lucky." >And what constitutes a criminal? Is speeding an executable offense for you? What about shoplifting? Selling weed? I'm curious. How does that matter? If you get pulled over you comply. I dont cares if you where speeding or have too much window tint or maybe the cop just wants to tell you that one of you back lights is broken. If you dont comply you are in the wrong. You put yourself and other in danger for no reason. If the cop does something inappropriate make a complain or escalate legal actions to whatever is appropriate afterwards. There is absolutely zero point in resisting or not complying. If you resist/dont comply the actions the cop take are towards that and possible risks you pose to him and other. The original reason why they stopped you becomes irrelevant. You dont get shot for windows tint but you do if you try to run over a cop and flee or if you act as if you are searching a gun or whatever stupid thing you could do that makes the cop escalate force. Also the fact that there are trigger happy cops does not change this at all. You can't know if you get stooped by such a cop and even if you do know your best chance to not get harmed is still to comply and take legal actions after wards. The only reason why people who truly did nothing wrong put themself in danger is their own ego.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  How is this an acceptable status quo? The entire point of due process is to protect individuals from the state… but when the state violates that protection, people bend over backwards to exculpate it. "Oh they didn't comply, well what do you expect." I expect the police to not violate my rights. They are given very narrowly defined powers in the course of their duties, and just because they routinely abuse those powers without consequence doesn't mean that we should be okay with it. Meanwhile, there is endless discourse over whether accusations of racism or sexual harassment should result in personal or professional repercussions. As if we should apply a criminal burden of proof before firing someone from a job, but it's okay for a cop to physically harm someone if they get scared. This is seriously wrong.
  - noxer 6y ago
    >I expect the police to not violate my rights. Sure, we all do but if they violate your rights anyway, it does not give you the right to resist, ignore orders or even defend yourself... yes that a hard one to swallow for many people egos but that's how it is. If there would be a way around this problem I'm sure we would have found out. But you just can't fight someone with a state given authority/power who most likely has the monopoly on force in the given situation. You have to take the legal way and to get a chance to do this you better comply with orders. Whether or not your rights where violated is decided by a judge not by arguing with a cop. >and just because they routinely abuse those powers without consequence doesn't mean that we should be okay with it. I doubt this is as routinely as people think it is and that there are no consequences but either way, whats your proposed solution? Do you think defunding the police would help? Or should people just open fire if a cop is abusing his power? I'm sure you can see that this would go nowhere. Complying isn't an option its the only option and the law clearly states that you have to comply. Then fight back the legal way if you can and impose the desired consequences on bad cops. Which BTW you cant do if you resisted even if you rights were violated, the moment you violate your duty the legal way will not favor you. Everyone should act like they would want their loved ones to act if they have a police encounter.
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      I think there are actually a lot of palliative measures: stop giving police surplus military equipment, end qualified immunity, pay misconduct settlements from police pensions, ban police unions, decriminalize drugs and prostitution. But frankly, I don’t think anything short of defunding is likely to work. Like you said, the root of the problem is that police have a monopoly on force, so the only solution is to drastically reduce the cases in which that imbalance exists. The US spends more money on policing than literally every country other than China spends on their military [1], so it’s prima facie ridiculous to me that we can’t significantly cut back our police force. [1] https://twitter.com/pplscitycouncil/status/1383071847479078913?s=21 https://twitter.com/pplscitycouncil/status/13830718474790789...
      - 6y ago

noxer 6y ago

>...could have rapidly ended up with me dead. Like if you started to shoot? What exactly could have turned this around without invalidating the "For doing absolutely nothing wrong." Its kind silly statement its like "I almost got pulled over for doing absolutely nothing, imagine If I were speeding, they would have stooped me for sure, I was lucky." >And what constitutes a criminal? Is speeding an executable offense for you? What about shoplifting? Selling weed? I'm curious. How does that matter? If you get pulled over you comply. I dont cares if you where speeding or have too much window tint or maybe the cop just wants to tell you that one of you back lights is broken. If you dont comply you are in the wrong. You put yourself and other in danger for no reason. If the cop does something inappropriate make a complain or escalate legal actions to whatever is appropriate afterwards. There is absolutely zero point in resisting or not complying. If you resist/dont comply the actions the cop take are towards that and possible risks you pose to him and other. The original reason why they stopped you becomes irrelevant. You dont get shot for windows tint but you do if you try to run over a cop and flee or if you act as if you are searching a gun or whatever stupid thing you could do that makes the cop escalate force. Also the fact that there are trigger happy cops does not change this at all. You can't know if you get stooped by such a cop and even if you do know your best chance to not get harmed is still to comply and take legal actions after wards. The only reason why people who truly did nothing wrong put themself in danger is their own ego.

jakelazaroff 6y ago
How is this an acceptable status quo? The entire point of due process is to protect individuals from the state… but when the state violates that protection, people bend over backwards to exculpate it. "Oh they didn't comply, well what do you expect." I expect the police to not violate my rights. They are given very narrowly defined powers in the course of their duties, and just because they routinely abuse those powers without consequence doesn't mean that we should be okay with it. Meanwhile, there is endless discourse over whether accusations of racism or sexual harassment should result in personal or professional repercussions. As if we should apply a criminal burden of proof before firing someone from a job, but it's okay for a cop to physically harm someone if they get scared. This is seriously wrong.
- noxer 6y ago
  >I expect the police to not violate my rights. Sure, we all do but if they violate your rights anyway, it does not give you the right to resist, ignore orders or even defend yourself... yes that a hard one to swallow for many people egos but that's how it is. If there would be a way around this problem I'm sure we would have found out. But you just can't fight someone with a state given authority/power who most likely has the monopoly on force in the given situation. You have to take the legal way and to get a chance to do this you better comply with orders. Whether or not your rights where violated is decided by a judge not by arguing with a cop. >and just because they routinely abuse those powers without consequence doesn't mean that we should be okay with it. I doubt this is as routinely as people think it is and that there are no consequences but either way, whats your proposed solution? Do you think defunding the police would help? Or should people just open fire if a cop is abusing his power? I'm sure you can see that this would go nowhere. Complying isn't an option its the only option and the law clearly states that you have to comply. Then fight back the legal way if you can and impose the desired consequences on bad cops. Which BTW you cant do if you resisted even if you rights were violated, the moment you violate your duty the legal way will not favor you. Everyone should act like they would want their loved ones to act if they have a police encounter.
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    I think there are actually a lot of palliative measures: stop giving police surplus military equipment, end qualified immunity, pay misconduct settlements from police pensions, ban police unions, decriminalize drugs and prostitution. But frankly, I don’t think anything short of defunding is likely to work. Like you said, the root of the problem is that police have a monopoly on force, so the only solution is to drastically reduce the cases in which that imbalance exists. The US spends more money on policing than literally every country other than China spends on their military [1], so it’s prima facie ridiculous to me that we can’t significantly cut back our police force. [1] https://twitter.com/pplscitycouncil/status/1383071847479078913?s=21 https://twitter.com/pplscitycouncil/status/13830718474790789...
    - 6y ago