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I am in design field more than 20 years. The minimalism trend is just another way of lowering the cost for manufacturing. Thats all. Designers that are capable

by nbzso 6y ago

I am in design field more than 20 years. The minimalism trend is just another way of lowering the cost for manufacturing. Thats all. Designers that are capable of producing long-term value are scarce and expensive. Companies treat design as "Marketing Decoration" and lowering the standard for the profession has produced hordes of technically capable designers that don't have deep knowledge of the subject. There is no time to learn the foundations. There is no time to explore possibilities. Just apply "best practices" and call it a day. The end result is homogeneity on a mass scale and lack of individuality. The anti-design and dark patterns trends are so strong, that in near future design will be successfully generated by AI like systems. Tech founders are design biased, they hide this behind terms as "accessibility", "inclusive design", "design testing", etc. This is a direct result of "thinking big" culture - Design for big audience, big VC, big "success" and mass adoption, before you know your audience at all. Design is measured today by "market value" and judging by the designers salaries - frontend devs are more valuable than skilled design professional. So, this is what you get by paying less. In my business I cannot give quality without being payed for the effort. I have dedicated my life to become skilled professional. There is no incentive to apply expertise and knowledge, when you know that your work will be measured as "cultural fit".

nbzso 6y ago
Example: This is a company with 13 million funding, without budget to spend on design: While the team is still less than ~20 ppl, we likely won't have a full-time designer. With the ubiquity of tools like Figma and design libraries like Material Design, we actually think this is okay. You're welcome to hire an agency to help with things like colors, fonts, illustrations, and to audit our component library. Agency? To help? May be more like "some freelancers and stock design templates". Good Lord. And then you have audacity to complain that "there is no design".
- Silhouette 6y ago
  I'm not quite sure what position and tone the parent comment is aiming for. Is this an example of the GP's concern that you are agreeing with? Or an example of why you think graphic design really is overrated because here's a company with millions in funding that doesn't care about design? You're welcome to hire an agency to help with things like colors, fonts, illustrations, and to audit our component library. I suspect someone like the GP could help with the other 90% of what graphic design is about, too, and the attitude implied here (whether it's your or the company's, again I'm not sure) is probably exactly what the GP is disappointed with.
  - nbzso 6y ago
    I represent my company and my professional views. You don't have to agree with me. If I have 13 million investment for new product I will invest in design system and brand differentiation from the start - period. Why? Because of the idea that my product must be unique. But hey, there is material library, why bother at this stage? Just hire someone to "decorate" over and make some "trendy" illustrations. Right? Just an inside: Last year I have returned 5 offers to redesign "some product" from startups, because they have build it with this way of thinking and redesign implementation is not possible. They must rebuild the whole product from scratch with design focus. Don't fall in this trap, to think that I have something "personal" and you must imply some wrongdoing. Please.
    - ASpaceCowboi 6y ago
      Hit the nail on this one.
    - claytongulick 6y ago
      I didn't see the response to your comment as implying wrongdoing. I was also having difficulty understanding the point you were making. You've clarified that now though, so thank you.
      - Silhouette 6y ago
        I wasn't intending to imply any wrongdoing, and I too was having some trouble understanding which side of the argument the comment I replied to was taking. (The comment was also edited after I wrote my reply.) After the follow-up, I think nbzso is arguing that good design does matter and can't just be retrofitted later, and in that case, we agree. Edit: Also, I've just realised that both the top comment and the one I replied to were written by the same person, so actually it seems very clear that we're in agreement. Apologies for missing that before.
        nbzso 6y ago
        Thanks for your reply.
shoto_io 6y ago
To make a counter-argument: I previously worked at a larger e-commerce company with a very strong design department. Working with the design team was not always easy because they had their own ideas about what customers wanted/prefer. They also had their own ideas about what is morally acceptable to implement and what is not. Within the company, they almost had their own culture. As a result, we had no "dark patterns," which was a good thing. In some cases, however, it became clear that their design/aesthetics thinking was more important to them than user experience. For example, when we displayed prices on mobile devices, we did not include a CTA. My team persuaded them to conduct a simple A/B test on mobile with an arrow button next to prices. As a result, conversion increased by 10%. People simply did not realize they could continue to the next step by clicking on the price. The design team despised the button, but it enabled customers to complete their tasks on our website.
- nbzso 6y ago
  My personal opinion is that this is the result of "low quality" of design education. When you separate intellectual and practical processes you cannot crate meaning. Example of top of my head: Bauhaus revolution was possible because of practical approach towards design. Designers that prefer aesthetic over product function are actually not professionals. Designers that have no insight in technical implementation are not capable to design properly. To design properly, one must rely on deep knowledge of classical principles and actual data. P.S. This counter-argument sounds more like "management and communication" problem.
  - shoto_io 6y ago
    Yes, maybe you’re right. But in this case at least the problem was clearly “located” in the design departement.
- gedy 6y ago
  I think this highlights that graphic designers are not necessarily good UI designers.
  - 6y ago
mavelikara 6y ago
> judging by the designers salaries - frontend devs are more valuable than skilled design professional. So, this is what you get by paying less. Why should frontend devs be not paid more than designers? Many frontend devs have dedicated significant numbers of years to become skilled professionals, just like you.
- nbzso 6y ago
  As a front-end dev by nature of my business I witnessed the difference my self and can share it with you. When designing a product right and towards long term quality, designers decision has more business value than front-end development. You can use design system for years to come and change front-end tech several times in this period. Todays front-end development is not like in 2008 when we used vanilla JS/Jquery/Ajax, there are tons of libraries and modularity in front-end development process. The low payment for designers is just tech founders devaluing the design process and the result is less qualified designers competing for what is left on the table (spoiler alert: it’s not too much). As you can see from citation, the mentioned startup is not looking for a designer, because they are under 20 people. Design is not important, because in perceived from tech founders view - material design library will be enough:) Don’t get me wrong. There are use cases for front-end development, when experienced developer can be critical for the business and bring immense value. I share my point of view, that if things go in current direction may be in near future design will be generated by neural nets on some “data proven” and “success guaranteed” methodology.
  - mavelikara 6y ago
    > When designing a product right and towards long term quality, designers decision has more business value than front-end development. A good design badly implemented leads to a poor product. > You can use design system for years to come and change front-end tech several times in this period. > Todays front-end development is not like in 2008 when we used vanilla JS/Jquery/Ajax, there are tons of libraries and modularity in front-end development process. > The low payment for designers is just tech founders devaluing the design process and the result is less qualified designers competing for what is left on the table (spoiler alert: it’s not too much). Or it could be a realization by founders that design skills have commoditized enough that specialist designers do not provide enough incremental value. If you hold the position that other parts of product development have commoditized with the advent of more libraries, it a strange to claim that design is immune to this change over time. The stance is especially peculiar because you also claim that the value of good design is its ability to be applicable for many years. So, maybe in many domains all the good designs have been explored and consensus arrived at that paying high for a specialist designer is valuable to only handful of teams?

by nbzso 6y ago

nbzso 6y ago

Example: This is a company with 13 million funding, without budget to spend on design: While the team is still less than ~20 ppl, we likely won't have a full-time designer. With the ubiquity of tools like Figma and design libraries like Material Design, we actually think this is okay. You're welcome to hire an agency to help with things like colors, fonts, illustrations, and to audit our component library. Agency? To help? May be more like "some freelancers and stock design templates". Good Lord. And then you have audacity to complain that "there is no design".

Silhouette 6y ago
I'm not quite sure what position and tone the parent comment is aiming for. Is this an example of the GP's concern that you are agreeing with? Or an example of why you think graphic design really is overrated because here's a company with millions in funding that doesn't care about design? You're welcome to hire an agency to help with things like colors, fonts, illustrations, and to audit our component library. I suspect someone like the GP could help with the other 90% of what graphic design is about, too, and the attitude implied here (whether it's your or the company's, again I'm not sure) is probably exactly what the GP is disappointed with.
- nbzso 6y ago
  I represent my company and my professional views. You don't have to agree with me. If I have 13 million investment for new product I will invest in design system and brand differentiation from the start - period. Why? Because of the idea that my product must be unique. But hey, there is material library, why bother at this stage? Just hire someone to "decorate" over and make some "trendy" illustrations. Right? Just an inside: Last year I have returned 5 offers to redesign "some product" from startups, because they have build it with this way of thinking and redesign implementation is not possible. They must rebuild the whole product from scratch with design focus. Don't fall in this trap, to think that I have something "personal" and you must imply some wrongdoing. Please.
  - ASpaceCowboi 6y ago
    Hit the nail on this one.
  - claytongulick 6y ago
    I didn't see the response to your comment as implying wrongdoing. I was also having difficulty understanding the point you were making. You've clarified that now though, so thank you.
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      I wasn't intending to imply any wrongdoing, and I too was having some trouble understanding which side of the argument the comment I replied to was taking. (The comment was also edited after I wrote my reply.) After the follow-up, I think nbzso is arguing that good design does matter and can't just be retrofitted later, and in that case, we agree. Edit: Also, I've just realised that both the top comment and the one I replied to were written by the same person, so actually it seems very clear that we're in agreement. Apologies for missing that before.
      - nbzso 6y ago
        Thanks for your reply.

shoto_io 6y ago

To make a counter-argument: I previously worked at a larger e-commerce company with a very strong design department. Working with the design team was not always easy because they had their own ideas about what customers wanted/prefer. They also had their own ideas about what is morally acceptable to implement and what is not. Within the company, they almost had their own culture. As a result, we had no "dark patterns," which was a good thing. In some cases, however, it became clear that their design/aesthetics thinking was more important to them than user experience. For example, when we displayed prices on mobile devices, we did not include a CTA. My team persuaded them to conduct a simple A/B test on mobile with an arrow button next to prices. As a result, conversion increased by 10%. People simply did not realize they could continue to the next step by clicking on the price. The design team despised the button, but it enabled customers to complete their tasks on our website.

nbzso 6y ago
My personal opinion is that this is the result of "low quality" of design education. When you separate intellectual and practical processes you cannot crate meaning. Example of top of my head: Bauhaus revolution was possible because of practical approach towards design. Designers that prefer aesthetic over product function are actually not professionals. Designers that have no insight in technical implementation are not capable to design properly. To design properly, one must rely on deep knowledge of classical principles and actual data. P.S. This counter-argument sounds more like "management and communication" problem.
- shoto_io 6y ago
  Yes, maybe you’re right. But in this case at least the problem was clearly “located” in the design departement.
gedy 6y ago
I think this highlights that graphic designers are not necessarily good UI designers.
- 6y ago

mavelikara 6y ago

> judging by the designers salaries - frontend devs are more valuable than skilled design professional. So, this is what you get by paying less. Why should frontend devs be not paid more than designers? Many frontend devs have dedicated significant numbers of years to become skilled professionals, just like you.

nbzso 6y ago
As a front-end dev by nature of my business I witnessed the difference my self and can share it with you. When designing a product right and towards long term quality, designers decision has more business value than front-end development. You can use design system for years to come and change front-end tech several times in this period. Todays front-end development is not like in 2008 when we used vanilla JS/Jquery/Ajax, there are tons of libraries and modularity in front-end development process. The low payment for designers is just tech founders devaluing the design process and the result is less qualified designers competing for what is left on the table (spoiler alert: it’s not too much). As you can see from citation, the mentioned startup is not looking for a designer, because they are under 20 people. Design is not important, because in perceived from tech founders view - material design library will be enough:) Don’t get me wrong. There are use cases for front-end development, when experienced developer can be critical for the business and bring immense value. I share my point of view, that if things go in current direction may be in near future design will be generated by neural nets on some “data proven” and “success guaranteed” methodology.
- mavelikara 6y ago
  > When designing a product right and towards long term quality, designers decision has more business value than front-end development. A good design badly implemented leads to a poor product. > You can use design system for years to come and change front-end tech several times in this period. > Todays front-end development is not like in 2008 when we used vanilla JS/Jquery/Ajax, there are tons of libraries and modularity in front-end development process. > The low payment for designers is just tech founders devaluing the design process and the result is less qualified designers competing for what is left on the table (spoiler alert: it’s not too much). Or it could be a realization by founders that design skills have commoditized enough that specialist designers do not provide enough incremental value. If you hold the position that other parts of product development have commoditized with the advent of more libraries, it a strange to claim that design is immune to this change over time. The stance is especially peculiar because you also claim that the value of good design is its ability to be applicable for many years. So, maybe in many domains all the good designs have been explored and consensus arrived at that paying high for a specialist designer is valuable to only handful of teams?