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The last bit is a bit of a straw man isn't it? You can study the initiation of the Manhattan project if you will. But once the bomb was built, it had to be use

The last bit is a bit of a straw man isn't it? You can study the initiation of the Manhattan project if you will. But once the bomb was built, it had to be used. And America at that point was already planning for the world after it had defeated the Axis powers and that is where the dark racist geopolitcs comes in.

krapp 6y ago
> The last bit is a bit of a straw man isn't it? It's a repudiation of the premise that "They (the US) chose Japan because its people were not white." Had the war in the Pacific ended first, the US would have dropped the bombs on Germany. Simplistic reductionist arguments like that only risk turning what could be interesting discussions into race-baiting flamewars. As far as dropping the bombs as a display of power to Stalin goes, it's a conspiracy theory without hard evidence. I'm sure the US was aware of the wider geopolitical context of what they were doing, but if all they wanted was to show Stalin they had a working bomb, they could have dropped one on Alaska or anywhere. The US' primary concern at the time was ending the war.
- throwaway4good 6y ago
  My source for this is documentation on display in the Hiroshima museum. Make of it what you will. PS: I don't judge the US for being racist - everyone was racist by today's standard anno 1944.
  - resoluteteeth 6y ago
    > My source for this is documentation on display in the Hiroshima museum. Make of it what you will. PS: I don't judge the US for being racist - everyone was racist by today's standard anno 1944. There's probably an actual argument to be made for it being motivated by racism but what you have posted here is not doing much for the case.
  - thehappypm 6y ago
    Just admit you're wrong here. The USA did not nuke Japan out of racism. It nuked Japan because they were the only enemy left.
    - throwaway4good 6y ago
      https://ieer.org/resource/commentary/always-the-target/ https://ieer.org/resource/commentary/always-the-target/ “Always” the target?: While U.S. bomb scientists were racing against Germany, military planners were looking toward the Pacific By Arjun Makhijani As for racism; well it was a different time. But look at the vilification of the Japanese and the American internment camps during the war. Plus the subsequent wars in Korea and Vietnam.
      - kryogen1c 6y ago
        everything you have said doesnt prove racism is a factor, much less the primary motivator. youre either using "racism" with a definition that makes it meaningless or using it incorrectly. the japenese killed americans in a surprise attack while US was not involved in the war. civillians were sacrificing to support the war effort. its not some mystery why the US would be eager to bomb japan and end the war. similarly, the japenese internment camps in the US were hardly inexplicable. when youre at war with people X, its reasonable to be at war with ALL people X, not just the ones in uniform. spycraft is a thing, and people often bear allegiance to their homelands. there are subtle types of sabotage that any enemy can perform. you have to prove the US wanted to kill the japanese becuase of their race, instead of the much more obvious and well-supported claim that US wanted to get revenge and end the war in the same blow.
        throwaway4good 6y ago
        I consider it a historical fact that the choice of Japan for the nuclear attack was made in 1943. It changes from primary a military target (harbor of Truk) to a list of 4 cities where the casualties would be mostly civilian later. The expectation of tens of thousands of civilian casulties is documented by the target commitee. On the racial undertones, I am not the only who sees them - this is from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_the... Strategic bombing of Japan Author John M. Curatola wrote that the anti-Japanese sentiment probably played a role in the strategic bombing of Japanese cities,[22] which began on March 9/10, 1945 with the destructive Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo to August 15, 1945, with the surrender of Japan.[23] Sixty-nine cities in Japan lost significant areas and hundreds of thousands of civilian lives to firebombing and nuclear attacks from United States Army Air Forces B-29 Superfortress bombers during this period.[24] According to Curatola and historian James J. Weingartner, both firebombing and nuclear attacks were partially the result of a dehumanization of the enemy,[22] with the latter saying, "[T]he widespread image of the Japanese as sub-human constituted an emotional context which provided another justification for decisions which resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands" across Japan.[25] On the second day after the Nagasaki bomb, President Harry S. Truman stated: "The only language they seem to understand is the one we have been using to bombard them. When you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him like a beast. It is most regrettable but nevertheless true".[10][26]

krapp 6y ago

> The last bit is a bit of a straw man isn't it? It's a repudiation of the premise that "They (the US) chose Japan because its people were not white." Had the war in the Pacific ended first, the US would have dropped the bombs on Germany. Simplistic reductionist arguments like that only risk turning what could be interesting discussions into race-baiting flamewars. As far as dropping the bombs as a display of power to Stalin goes, it's a conspiracy theory without hard evidence. I'm sure the US was aware of the wider geopolitical context of what they were doing, but if all they wanted was to show Stalin they had a working bomb, they could have dropped one on Alaska or anywhere. The US' primary concern at the time was ending the war.

throwaway4good 6y ago
My source for this is documentation on display in the Hiroshima museum. Make of it what you will. PS: I don't judge the US for being racist - everyone was racist by today's standard anno 1944.
- resoluteteeth 6y ago
  > My source for this is documentation on display in the Hiroshima museum. Make of it what you will. PS: I don't judge the US for being racist - everyone was racist by today's standard anno 1944. There's probably an actual argument to be made for it being motivated by racism but what you have posted here is not doing much for the case.
- thehappypm 6y ago
  Just admit you're wrong here. The USA did not nuke Japan out of racism. It nuked Japan because they were the only enemy left.
  - throwaway4good 6y ago
    https://ieer.org/resource/commentary/always-the-target/ https://ieer.org/resource/commentary/always-the-target/ “Always” the target?: While U.S. bomb scientists were racing against Germany, military planners were looking toward the Pacific By Arjun Makhijani As for racism; well it was a different time. But look at the vilification of the Japanese and the American internment camps during the war. Plus the subsequent wars in Korea and Vietnam.
    - kryogen1c 6y ago
      everything you have said doesnt prove racism is a factor, much less the primary motivator. youre either using "racism" with a definition that makes it meaningless or using it incorrectly. the japenese killed americans in a surprise attack while US was not involved in the war. civillians were sacrificing to support the war effort. its not some mystery why the US would be eager to bomb japan and end the war. similarly, the japenese internment camps in the US were hardly inexplicable. when youre at war with people X, its reasonable to be at war with ALL people X, not just the ones in uniform. spycraft is a thing, and people often bear allegiance to their homelands. there are subtle types of sabotage that any enemy can perform. you have to prove the US wanted to kill the japanese becuase of their race, instead of the much more obvious and well-supported claim that US wanted to get revenge and end the war in the same blow.
      - throwaway4good 6y ago
        I consider it a historical fact that the choice of Japan for the nuclear attack was made in 1943. It changes from primary a military target (harbor of Truk) to a list of 4 cities where the casualties would be mostly civilian later. The expectation of tens of thousands of civilian casulties is documented by the target commitee. On the racial undertones, I am not the only who sees them - this is from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_the... Strategic bombing of Japan Author John M. Curatola wrote that the anti-Japanese sentiment probably played a role in the strategic bombing of Japanese cities,[22] which began on March 9/10, 1945 with the destructive Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo to August 15, 1945, with the surrender of Japan.[23] Sixty-nine cities in Japan lost significant areas and hundreds of thousands of civilian lives to firebombing and nuclear attacks from United States Army Air Forces B-29 Superfortress bombers during this period.[24] According to Curatola and historian James J. Weingartner, both firebombing and nuclear attacks were partially the result of a dehumanization of the enemy,[22] with the latter saying, "[T]he widespread image of the Japanese as sub-human constituted an emotional context which provided another justification for decisions which resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands" across Japan.[25] On the second day after the Nagasaki bomb, President Harry S. Truman stated: "The only language they seem to understand is the one we have been using to bombard them. When you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him like a beast. It is most regrettable but nevertheless true".[10][26]