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It's nice to read a capsule history of Singapore's history that doesn't toe the official line, but this is still laying it on a little too thick. For example,

It's nice to read a capsule history of Singapore's history that doesn't toe the official line, but this is still laying it on a little too thick. For example, the supposedly "crash-prone trains" that carry some 3.3 million people on an average day have actually had a grand total of two (2) accidents since 1987, resulting in precisely zero (0) fatalities, and the "destitution of its underclass" is a bit much in a country where essentially everybody is entitled to a tiny but nearly-free rental flat.

djrobstep 6y ago
> essentially everybody is entitled to a tiny but nearly-free rental flat That is straight out wrong. Migrant workers are forced to live in terrible, cramped conditions (a big contributor to the spread of covid in singapore): https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2020/opinion/why-singapores-covid-19-cases-growing https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2020/opinion/why-si...
- Clewza313 6y ago
  We're talking about different things here. You're talking about non-Singaporean migrant workers, who are poor but not "destitute", since they have paid jobs, food and shelter. I'm talking about the poorest Singaporeans, often unemployed and/or elderly who are entitled to meager but survivable benefits, including cash handouts and heavily subsidized housing. It's not an enviable life, and SG could and should do better, but neither is it "destitution" on the scale of street beggars in (say) India or Indonesia.
  - hnick 6y ago
    One thing that is striking when visiting Singapore is the number of elderly people working basic jobs in fast food, street stalls, and similar roles. I don't know enough to judge their financial well-being, but it's very different to what we see here in Australia. Without more information I can't even say if it's mainly because over here we are reluctant to employ the elderly at all, I'm sure some Australians need the money too. It's just different.
    - AussieWog93 6y ago
      It's definitely starting to happen in Melbourne. Go to Red Rooster at Southern Cross and try to spot the non-pensioner. I think too many young people are quick to forget that there are many boomers who didn't get the opportunity to own property back in the day, and they're fucked over by the bubble even harder than we are.
    - Clewza313 6y ago
      The main driver here (IMHO) is that Singapore's pay-as-you-go pension system is/was quite patchy, particularly for the self-employed, who were exempted a long time and even today only need to contribute to their health insurance. Many of the elderly workers never accumulated a pension, so they need to work in menial jobs to support themselves. In 2014 and 2018, the government finally introduced a set of meager benefits for those born in the 1940s and 1950s, but it's almost entirely focused on medical expenses and far from a "real" state pension. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merdeka_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merdeka_Generation_Package
      - refurb 6y ago
        Yup. Many of the folks in their 70s and 80’s were in their prime working years when Singapore was far from as wealthy as it is today and before a lot of the forced savings programs (CPF). Many aren’t destitute, they have an HDB that’s worth a lot, they have healthcare that is heavily subsidized, but not much else for daily expenses.
        hnick 6y ago
        > they have an HDB that’s worth a lot That got my interest. Apparently there's a HDB lease buyback scheme, basically a reverse mortgage I guess? Though with stronger family ties over there I'm not sure how popular that would be when considering children, inheritance, and all that.
        6y ago
  - djrobstep 6y ago
    I didn't mention destitution. I simply pointed out that you are very badly informed about the reality of housing in Singapore, or flat out making things up.
- roenxi 6y ago
  You raise the interesting question of why would someone travel long distances to live in terrible cramped conditions.
  - pydry 6y ago
    Desperation, usually.
  - ValentineC 6y ago
    > You raise the interesting question of why would someone travel long distances to live in terrible cramped conditions. I found this [1]: > Before he left home, friends and relatives who had worked in Singapore told of a dream city where the roads were clean, people were friendly, and everyone followed the law. [1] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/singapore-muslim-migrant-workers-ramadan-fasting-10338508 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/singapore-mu...
  - djrobstep 6y ago
    A question with a very obvious answer: Desperation and exploitation.
borepop 6y ago
Singapore has no minimum wage. If its underclass were not destitute, I would think that would be rather surprising.
- Clewza313 6y ago
  The unemployed (short or long term) with no assets or family assistance are entitled to ComCare subsidies, which are designed specifically to stop people from falling into destitution: https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Short-to-Medium-Term-Assistance.aspx https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Short-to-Medium-Term-Assist... https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx Here's the BBC on what this looks like in practice: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26349689 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26349689
- anchpop 6y ago
  Without commenting on Singapore, many countries have no minimum wage without negative consequence. It can be substituted with strong unions or social programs. In fact minimum wage is kind of a blunt instrument. People often say that everyone should be paid a living wage, but a living wage for a single mom with four kids is much higher than a living wage for a highschooler who lives with his parents. A minimum wage high enough to guarantee the mom a living wage would almost certainly make illegal many job opportunities the highschooler would love to have. I would prefer the government guarantee everyone a dignified life rather than try to use the minimum wage (which fundamentally only affects working people, not everyone)
  - thisrod 6y ago
    This is indeed a problem, but there is a very simple and effective solution that Australians call "youth wages".
    - logicchains 6y ago
      It's not very effective if you look at youth unemployement compared to a country like Singapore. Young adults who miss out the chance to get work experience when they're younger get completely shafted, because employers demand experience but nobody wants to give them the chance to gain that experience because of how much it costs.
jesterson 6y ago
> essentially everybody is entitled to a tiny but nearly-free rental flat It's been pointed out already, but pretty much every word in this part of sentence is wrong. You may want to learn a bit more about Singapore HDB. Ah, I beg your pardon, you're absolutely right about tiny part. Short answer: not everybody, not entitled, not anywhere nearly free (where is this even comes from?).
- refurb 6y ago
  Overly broad and vague, but not that far off the mark. If you're a citizen or PR you are entitled to an HDB if your income isn't too high. If you can't afford to buy an HDB (with many gov't grants), you can rent an HDB. If you're really low income, the rent can be very low (ten's of SGD per month). So basically if you're a SC/PR, you won't go without decent housing in Singapore. That's actually quite impressive for countries in SE Asia.
  - pydry 6y ago
    I saw a good number of homeless camping in, for instance, East Coast park.
    - Clewza313 6y ago
      Yes, there are an estimated 1,000 people sleeping rough. The study below determined that 40% of them actually own/rent housing, but don't use it because of eg. family conflicts, while the remainder either choose not to apply or have somehow fallen through the cracks of the system. https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/gia/article/singapore's-hidden-homeless-insights-from-a-nationwide-street-count https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/gia/article/singapore's-hidden-hom...
    - qsi 6y ago
      Erhm, if you want to camp in East Coast Park (or anywhere on public land in Singapore), you need to apply for a permit and it's only allowed at designated camping grounds. The campers you saw were recreational, and seldom stay for more than one night. On most weekdays you won't see any tents at East Coast.

djrobstep 6y ago

> essentially everybody is entitled to a tiny but nearly-free rental flat That is straight out wrong. Migrant workers are forced to live in terrible, cramped conditions (a big contributor to the spread of covid in singapore): https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2020/opinion/why-singapores-covid-19-cases-growing https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2020/opinion/why-si...

Clewza313 6y ago
We're talking about different things here. You're talking about non-Singaporean migrant workers, who are poor but not "destitute", since they have paid jobs, food and shelter. I'm talking about the poorest Singaporeans, often unemployed and/or elderly who are entitled to meager but survivable benefits, including cash handouts and heavily subsidized housing. It's not an enviable life, and SG could and should do better, but neither is it "destitution" on the scale of street beggars in (say) India or Indonesia.
- hnick 6y ago
  One thing that is striking when visiting Singapore is the number of elderly people working basic jobs in fast food, street stalls, and similar roles. I don't know enough to judge their financial well-being, but it's very different to what we see here in Australia. Without more information I can't even say if it's mainly because over here we are reluctant to employ the elderly at all, I'm sure some Australians need the money too. It's just different.
  - AussieWog93 6y ago
    It's definitely starting to happen in Melbourne. Go to Red Rooster at Southern Cross and try to spot the non-pensioner. I think too many young people are quick to forget that there are many boomers who didn't get the opportunity to own property back in the day, and they're fucked over by the bubble even harder than we are.
  - Clewza313 6y ago
    The main driver here (IMHO) is that Singapore's pay-as-you-go pension system is/was quite patchy, particularly for the self-employed, who were exempted a long time and even today only need to contribute to their health insurance. Many of the elderly workers never accumulated a pension, so they need to work in menial jobs to support themselves. In 2014 and 2018, the government finally introduced a set of meager benefits for those born in the 1940s and 1950s, but it's almost entirely focused on medical expenses and far from a "real" state pension. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merdeka_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merdeka_Generation_Package
    - refurb 6y ago
      Yup. Many of the folks in their 70s and 80’s were in their prime working years when Singapore was far from as wealthy as it is today and before a lot of the forced savings programs (CPF). Many aren’t destitute, they have an HDB that’s worth a lot, they have healthcare that is heavily subsidized, but not much else for daily expenses.
      - hnick 6y ago
        > they have an HDB that’s worth a lot That got my interest. Apparently there's a HDB lease buyback scheme, basically a reverse mortgage I guess? Though with stronger family ties over there I'm not sure how popular that would be when considering children, inheritance, and all that.
        6y ago
- djrobstep 6y ago
  I didn't mention destitution. I simply pointed out that you are very badly informed about the reality of housing in Singapore, or flat out making things up.
roenxi 6y ago
You raise the interesting question of why would someone travel long distances to live in terrible cramped conditions.
- pydry 6y ago
  Desperation, usually.
- ValentineC 6y ago
  > You raise the interesting question of why would someone travel long distances to live in terrible cramped conditions. I found this [1]: > Before he left home, friends and relatives who had worked in Singapore told of a dream city where the roads were clean, people were friendly, and everyone followed the law. [1] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/singapore-muslim-migrant-workers-ramadan-fasting-10338508 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/singapore-mu...
- djrobstep 6y ago
  A question with a very obvious answer: Desperation and exploitation.

borepop 6y ago

Singapore has no minimum wage. If its underclass were not destitute, I would think that would be rather surprising.

Clewza313 6y ago
The unemployed (short or long term) with no assets or family assistance are entitled to ComCare subsidies, which are designed specifically to stop people from falling into destitution: https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Short-to-Medium-Term-Assistance.aspx https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Short-to-Medium-Term-Assist... https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx Here's the BBC on what this looks like in practice: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26349689 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26349689
anchpop 6y ago
Without commenting on Singapore, many countries have no minimum wage without negative consequence. It can be substituted with strong unions or social programs. In fact minimum wage is kind of a blunt instrument. People often say that everyone should be paid a living wage, but a living wage for a single mom with four kids is much higher than a living wage for a highschooler who lives with his parents. A minimum wage high enough to guarantee the mom a living wage would almost certainly make illegal many job opportunities the highschooler would love to have. I would prefer the government guarantee everyone a dignified life rather than try to use the minimum wage (which fundamentally only affects working people, not everyone)
- thisrod 6y ago
  This is indeed a problem, but there is a very simple and effective solution that Australians call "youth wages".
  - logicchains 6y ago
    It's not very effective if you look at youth unemployement compared to a country like Singapore. Young adults who miss out the chance to get work experience when they're younger get completely shafted, because employers demand experience but nobody wants to give them the chance to gain that experience because of how much it costs.

jesterson 6y ago

> essentially everybody is entitled to a tiny but nearly-free rental flat It's been pointed out already, but pretty much every word in this part of sentence is wrong. You may want to learn a bit more about Singapore HDB. Ah, I beg your pardon, you're absolutely right about tiny part. Short answer: not everybody, not entitled, not anywhere nearly free (where is this even comes from?).

refurb 6y ago
Overly broad and vague, but not that far off the mark. If you're a citizen or PR you are entitled to an HDB if your income isn't too high. If you can't afford to buy an HDB (with many gov't grants), you can rent an HDB. If you're really low income, the rent can be very low (ten's of SGD per month). So basically if you're a SC/PR, you won't go without decent housing in Singapore. That's actually quite impressive for countries in SE Asia.
- pydry 6y ago
  I saw a good number of homeless camping in, for instance, East Coast park.
  - Clewza313 6y ago
    Yes, there are an estimated 1,000 people sleeping rough. The study below determined that 40% of them actually own/rent housing, but don't use it because of eg. family conflicts, while the remainder either choose not to apply or have somehow fallen through the cracks of the system. https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/gia/article/singapore's-hidden-homeless-insights-from-a-nationwide-street-count https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/gia/article/singapore's-hidden-hom...
  - qsi 6y ago
    Erhm, if you want to camp in East Coast Park (or anywhere on public land in Singapore), you need to apply for a permit and it's only allowed at designated camping grounds. The campers you saw were recreational, and seldom stay for more than one night. On most weekdays you won't see any tents at East Coast.