5 ms·

you know how some people say that joe rogan is gwyneth paltrow for men? i.e. he's a panderer and a snake oil salesperson that packages their snake oil and pithy

you know how some people say that joe rogan is gwyneth paltrow for men? i.e. he's a panderer and a snake oil salesperson that packages their snake oil and pithy advice in such a way that it's palatable and relatable to men? every day on hn there are countless articles that are of the self-help variety from various entrepreneurs and startup celebrities and whatever. why is this kind of content so popular on a place that prides itself on rigorous rational inquiry (or whatever it is that's on the masthead)? basically i see people nodding along with the most superficial "wisdom" and i don't understand 1) why people are fine with being pandered to 2) why people don't seek out counsel from trained professionals (i.e. therapists) or at least the truly wise (the steinbecks of the world). in reality i know the answer to these questions (that people here are no different from joe rogan/gwyneth paltrow fans they just have a different flavor) but i just wish hn would drop the pretense about "curious discourse" or whatever.

uglygoblin 6y ago
You've put into words what I haven't been able to, thanks for this take. I totally agree we are generally just dealing with another flavor of the same behavior.
sergiotapia 6y ago
>he's a panderer and a snake oil salesperson that packages their snake oil and pithy advice in such a way that it's palatable and relatable to men? I've watched about 10 of the shows and he doesn't sell anything or offer anything except asking questions and guiding the conversation with the guest. For example the 2 kevin heart interviews, joe rogan sold nothing.
- anon_tor_12345 6y ago
  >I've watched about 10 of the shows as of april 14 there have been 1,634 episodes of JRE. do you think maybe your sample isn't representative?
  - imgabe 6y ago
    I've listened to quite a bit of Rogan and I'm also struggling to figure out what you mean by him giving people advice or selling snake oil. He has ads, as just about all media does, but the interviews themselves are just long-form conversations with interesting people. He doesn't really tell people to do anything, except maybe learn Brazilian jiu jitsu or occasionally (to his guests) to start a podcast.
    - burntoutfire 6y ago
      He's "selling" a certain attitude and world view where hard work and sacrifice ultimately bring happiness. It sells well, because people love to listen to success stories and love to get temporarily enthusiastic, imagining them doing the hard work and sacrifice as well.
      - imgabe 6y ago
        I went and Googled this to see what it was about. Seems like it's some doctor /wannabe-influencer trying to make a name for herself: https://www.instagram.com/p/CNK0cPLL4df/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CNK0cPLL4df/
      - sergiotapia 6y ago
        > He's "selling" a certain attitude and world view where hard work and sacrifice ultimately bring happiness. How is this not true? All good things I have are because I busted my ass and when I was lucky enough to have opportunities I had the tools to capitalize on those opportunities. If you’re lazy and just coasting you cannot be ready when opportunity knocks.
corobo 6y ago
1) sometimes junk food hits the spot. Sometimes self help articles hit the spot 2) Price tag
- JimTheMan 6y ago
  And although we've made big strides on number 2, there's still a stigma attached to seeing a therapist for men. It's been changing in my lifetime but it's still there.
potatoman22 6y ago
Why talk down about people who like Rogan/Paltrow? Do you think their tastes are any lesser than yours? Also, who are you to decide what is "truly" wise ahahaha
- anon_tor_12345 6y ago
  i don't talk down to people that are their fans (i am very critical of rogan and paltrow themselves) i talk down to people that pretend they're not just fans but sophisticated connoisseurs (ie the hn crowd that believes themselves to be different).
dwaltrip 6y ago
Something that is superficial wisdom for you is an important message for someone else. We are all coming from different places. Our journeys may have similarities but no two are exactly alike. Do you have any specific critique for this post? I can see how it might be annoying if all of the content was of this type, but these posts don’t seem to take up too much space.
- aspaceman 6y ago
  The article's thought process and conclusions feel narcissistic. The preoccupation with intelligence is exhausting, and the article's conclusion, "turn your eyes forward and focus on what you can change: the future." is such a milquetoast statement it feels condescending. Many wish to learn from their mistakes - many argue that learning from mistakes is key to not repeating them. All of this contributes to the stress and anxiety felt from looking back. I could write an article that takes an entirely contrary opinion about looking back and learning from your mistakes. The conclusions are self-help nonsense, but it's well-written self-help nonsense with a techy / entrepreneur vibe. If it makes you feel better, I'm happy for you. But it's just astrology with a different coat of paint.
mrgreenfur 6y ago
Totally agree. I also think this is mostly what religion is. "Wisdom" with some powerful rituals and family/social re-enforcement that tickles the same spot of the brain: tricks to get ahead from wiser people that know whats up.
- seppin 6y ago
  Yep, see all the "self-help" books popular in SV that amount of repackaged stoicism/buddhism written by marketers.
- xwolfi 6y ago
  Well it depends. Those self-help gurus are also finance-driven, while religion is often, especially at the start, more like a focused group-building exercise. You reject all attempt at explaining the world so you don't get stuck in awe on the beach looking at the sky, and start instead the long work of cultivating fields, building monuments, joining armies, things like that. Islam was a tool to unite then conquer, Judaism possibly an emancipation/union initiative for slave, and Christianity a very soft society transformer in Rome. They all served group-building exercise. Self-help instead does a bit the opposite, it focuses on you as an individual, is very transactional (you pay to read advice), and has very little to show for (or it's very hard to measure), unlike say Christianity arriving in a slave colony.
earthtobishop 6y ago
I don’t really understand the I think he gives great advice. > every day on hn there are countless articles that are of the self-help variety from various entrepreneurs and startup celebrities and whatever. why is this kind of content so popular on a place that prides itself on rigorous rational inquiry (or whatever it is that's on the masthead)? basically i see people nodding along with the most superficial "wisdom" and i don't understand It’s funny you say this because I was going to comment that this is the comment I see everyday on HN whenever anyone gives business advice. The HN comment section of every article written by an entrepreneur (especially a successful one) that gives basic advice is filled with comments about how they are tired of business people selling them a dream. You almost always can find a comment on survivorship bias, luck, privilege, etc. > 1) why people are fine with being pandered to Have you ever considered that people actually find these articles useful ? HN has been extremely valuable for me. I’ve learned so much about the startup world and it’s awesome to here from people who have built successfully companies themselves.
- anon_tor_12345 6y ago
  >that gives basic advice is filled with comments about how they are tired of business people selling them a dream. You almost always can find a comment on survivorship bias, luck, privilege, etc. so then there's a consistent group of people on hn that are sick of business guru advice. what's your point? >Have you ever considered that people actually find these articles useful https://www.amazon.com/Chicken-Soup-Entrepreneurs-Soul-Inspiration/product-reviews/1623610273/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewpnt_lft?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&filterByStar=positive&pageNumber=1 https://www.amazon.com/Chicken-Soup-Entrepreneurs-Soul-Inspi... and yet do we really believe "Chicken Soup for the Entrepreneur's Soul" is substantive content?

uglygoblin 6y ago

You've put into words what I haven't been able to, thanks for this take. I totally agree we are generally just dealing with another flavor of the same behavior.

sergiotapia 6y ago

>he's a panderer and a snake oil salesperson that packages their snake oil and pithy advice in such a way that it's palatable and relatable to men? I've watched about 10 of the shows and he doesn't sell anything or offer anything except asking questions and guiding the conversation with the guest. For example the 2 kevin heart interviews, joe rogan sold nothing.

anon_tor_12345 6y ago
>I've watched about 10 of the shows as of april 14 there have been 1,634 episodes of JRE. do you think maybe your sample isn't representative?
- imgabe 6y ago
  I've listened to quite a bit of Rogan and I'm also struggling to figure out what you mean by him giving people advice or selling snake oil. He has ads, as just about all media does, but the interviews themselves are just long-form conversations with interesting people. He doesn't really tell people to do anything, except maybe learn Brazilian jiu jitsu or occasionally (to his guests) to start a podcast.
  - burntoutfire 6y ago
    He's "selling" a certain attitude and world view where hard work and sacrifice ultimately bring happiness. It sells well, because people love to listen to success stories and love to get temporarily enthusiastic, imagining them doing the hard work and sacrifice as well.
    - imgabe 6y ago
      I went and Googled this to see what it was about. Seems like it's some doctor /wannabe-influencer trying to make a name for herself: https://www.instagram.com/p/CNK0cPLL4df/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CNK0cPLL4df/
    - sergiotapia 6y ago
      > He's "selling" a certain attitude and world view where hard work and sacrifice ultimately bring happiness. How is this not true? All good things I have are because I busted my ass and when I was lucky enough to have opportunities I had the tools to capitalize on those opportunities. If you’re lazy and just coasting you cannot be ready when opportunity knocks.

corobo 6y ago

1) sometimes junk food hits the spot. Sometimes self help articles hit the spot 2) Price tag

JimTheMan 6y ago
And although we've made big strides on number 2, there's still a stigma attached to seeing a therapist for men. It's been changing in my lifetime but it's still there.

potatoman22 6y ago

Why talk down about people who like Rogan/Paltrow? Do you think their tastes are any lesser than yours? Also, who are you to decide what is "truly" wise ahahaha

anon_tor_12345 6y ago
i don't talk down to people that are their fans (i am very critical of rogan and paltrow themselves) i talk down to people that pretend they're not just fans but sophisticated connoisseurs (ie the hn crowd that believes themselves to be different).

dwaltrip 6y ago

Something that is superficial wisdom for you is an important message for someone else. We are all coming from different places. Our journeys may have similarities but no two are exactly alike. Do you have any specific critique for this post? I can see how it might be annoying if all of the content was of this type, but these posts don’t seem to take up too much space.

aspaceman 6y ago
The article's thought process and conclusions feel narcissistic. The preoccupation with intelligence is exhausting, and the article's conclusion, "turn your eyes forward and focus on what you can change: the future." is such a milquetoast statement it feels condescending. Many wish to learn from their mistakes - many argue that learning from mistakes is key to not repeating them. All of this contributes to the stress and anxiety felt from looking back. I could write an article that takes an entirely contrary opinion about looking back and learning from your mistakes. The conclusions are self-help nonsense, but it's well-written self-help nonsense with a techy / entrepreneur vibe. If it makes you feel better, I'm happy for you. But it's just astrology with a different coat of paint.

mrgreenfur 6y ago

Totally agree. I also think this is mostly what religion is. "Wisdom" with some powerful rituals and family/social re-enforcement that tickles the same spot of the brain: tricks to get ahead from wiser people that know whats up.

seppin 6y ago
Yep, see all the "self-help" books popular in SV that amount of repackaged stoicism/buddhism written by marketers.
xwolfi 6y ago
Well it depends. Those self-help gurus are also finance-driven, while religion is often, especially at the start, more like a focused group-building exercise. You reject all attempt at explaining the world so you don't get stuck in awe on the beach looking at the sky, and start instead the long work of cultivating fields, building monuments, joining armies, things like that. Islam was a tool to unite then conquer, Judaism possibly an emancipation/union initiative for slave, and Christianity a very soft society transformer in Rome. They all served group-building exercise. Self-help instead does a bit the opposite, it focuses on you as an individual, is very transactional (you pay to read advice), and has very little to show for (or it's very hard to measure), unlike say Christianity arriving in a slave colony.

earthtobishop 6y ago

I don’t really understand the I think he gives great advice. > every day on hn there are countless articles that are of the self-help variety from various entrepreneurs and startup celebrities and whatever. why is this kind of content so popular on a place that prides itself on rigorous rational inquiry (or whatever it is that's on the masthead)? basically i see people nodding along with the most superficial "wisdom" and i don't understand It’s funny you say this because I was going to comment that this is the comment I see everyday on HN whenever anyone gives business advice. The HN comment section of every article written by an entrepreneur (especially a successful one) that gives basic advice is filled with comments about how they are tired of business people selling them a dream. You almost always can find a comment on survivorship bias, luck, privilege, etc. > 1) why people are fine with being pandered to Have you ever considered that people actually find these articles useful ? HN has been extremely valuable for me. I’ve learned so much about the startup world and it’s awesome to here from people who have built successfully companies themselves.

anon_tor_12345 6y ago
>that gives basic advice is filled with comments about how they are tired of business people selling them a dream. You almost always can find a comment on survivorship bias, luck, privilege, etc. so then there's a consistent group of people on hn that are sick of business guru advice. what's your point? >Have you ever considered that people actually find these articles useful https://www.amazon.com/Chicken-Soup-Entrepreneurs-Soul-Inspiration/product-reviews/1623610273/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewpnt_lft?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&filterByStar=positive&pageNumber=1 https://www.amazon.com/Chicken-Soup-Entrepreneurs-Soul-Inspi... and yet do we really believe "Chicken Soup for the Entrepreneur's Soul" is substantive content?