7 ms·

Book review on the history of modern Singapore

74 points by betocmn 5y ago

ashconnor 5y ago
Men in White is another good book that focuses on the PAP and their role in Singapore post independence. https://www.amazon.com/dp/9814266248/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_VHBTNG8N8W99H7BA00ER https://www.amazon.com/dp/9814266248/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_...
Clewza313 5y ago
It's nice to read a capsule history of Singapore's history that doesn't toe the official line, but this is still laying it on a little too thick. For example, the supposedly "crash-prone trains" that carry some 3.3 million people on an average day have actually had a grand total of two (2) accidents since 1987, resulting in precisely zero (0) fatalities, and the "destitution of its underclass" is a bit much in a country where essentially everybody is entitled to a tiny but nearly-free rental flat.
- djrobstep 5y ago
  > essentially everybody is entitled to a tiny but nearly-free rental flat That is straight out wrong. Migrant workers are forced to live in terrible, cramped conditions (a big contributor to the spread of covid in singapore): https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2020/opinion/why-singapores-covid-19-cases-growing https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2020/opinion/why-si...
  - Clewza313 5y ago
    We're talking about different things here. You're talking about non-Singaporean migrant workers, who are poor but not "destitute", since they have paid jobs, food and shelter. I'm talking about the poorest Singaporeans, often unemployed and/or elderly who are entitled to meager but survivable benefits, including cash handouts and heavily subsidized housing. It's not an enviable life, and SG could and should do better, but neither is it "destitution" on the scale of street beggars in (say) India or Indonesia.
    - hnick 5y ago
      One thing that is striking when visiting Singapore is the number of elderly people working basic jobs in fast food, street stalls, and similar roles. I don't know enough to judge their financial well-being, but it's very different to what we see here in Australia. Without more information I can't even say if it's mainly because over here we are reluctant to employ the elderly at all, I'm sure some Australians need the money too. It's just different.
      - AussieWog93 5y ago
        It's definitely starting to happen in Melbourne. Go to Red Rooster at Southern Cross and try to spot the non-pensioner. I think too many young people are quick to forget that there are many boomers who didn't get the opportunity to own property back in the day, and they're fucked over by the bubble even harder than we are.
      - Clewza313 5y ago
        The main driver here (IMHO) is that Singapore's pay-as-you-go pension system is/was quite patchy, particularly for the self-employed, who were exempted a long time and even today only need to contribute to their health insurance. Many of the elderly workers never accumulated a pension, so they need to work in menial jobs to support themselves. In 2014 and 2018, the government finally introduced a set of meager benefits for those born in the 1940s and 1950s, but it's almost entirely focused on medical expenses and far from a "real" state pension. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merdeka_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merdeka_Generation_Package
        refurb 5y ago
        Yup. Many of the folks in their 70s and 80’s were in their prime working years when Singapore was far from as wealthy as it is today and before a lot of the forced savings programs (CPF). Many aren’t destitute, they have an HDB that’s worth a lot, they have healthcare that is heavily subsidized, but not much else for daily expenses.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    You raise the interesting question of why would someone travel long distances to live in terrible cramped conditions.
    - pydry 5y ago
      Desperation, usually.
    - ValentineC 5y ago
      > You raise the interesting question of why would someone travel long distances to live in terrible cramped conditions. I found this [1]: > Before he left home, friends and relatives who had worked in Singapore told of a dream city where the roads were clean, people were friendly, and everyone followed the law. [1] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/singapore-muslim-migrant-workers-ramadan-fasting-10338508 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/singapore-mu...
    - djrobstep 5y ago
      A question with a very obvious answer: Desperation and exploitation.
- borepop 5y ago
  Singapore has no minimum wage. If its underclass were not destitute, I would think that would be rather surprising.
  - Clewza313 5y ago
    The unemployed (short or long term) with no assets or family assistance are entitled to ComCare subsidies, which are designed specifically to stop people from falling into destitution: https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Short-to-Medium-Term-Assistance.aspx https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Short-to-Medium-Term-Assist... https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx Here's the BBC on what this looks like in practice: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26349689 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26349689
  - anchpop 5y ago
    Without commenting on Singapore, many countries have no minimum wage without negative consequence. It can be substituted with strong unions or social programs. In fact minimum wage is kind of a blunt instrument. People often say that everyone should be paid a living wage, but a living wage for a single mom with four kids is much higher than a living wage for a highschooler who lives with his parents. A minimum wage high enough to guarantee the mom a living wage would almost certainly make illegal many job opportunities the highschooler would love to have. I would prefer the government guarantee everyone a dignified life rather than try to use the minimum wage (which fundamentally only affects working people, not everyone)
    - thisrod 5y ago
      This is indeed a problem, but there is a very simple and effective solution that Australians call "youth wages".
      - logicchains 5y ago
        It's not very effective if you look at youth unemployement compared to a country like Singapore. Young adults who miss out the chance to get work experience when they're younger get completely shafted, because employers demand experience but nobody wants to give them the chance to gain that experience because of how much it costs.
- jesterson 5y ago
  > essentially everybody is entitled to a tiny but nearly-free rental flat It's been pointed out already, but pretty much every word in this part of sentence is wrong. You may want to learn a bit more about Singapore HDB. Ah, I beg your pardon, you're absolutely right about tiny part. Short answer: not everybody, not entitled, not anywhere nearly free (where is this even comes from?).
  - refurb 5y ago
    Overly broad and vague, but not that far off the mark. If you're a citizen or PR you are entitled to an HDB if your income isn't too high. If you can't afford to buy an HDB (with many gov't grants), you can rent an HDB. If you're really low income, the rent can be very low (ten's of SGD per month). So basically if you're a SC/PR, you won't go without decent housing in Singapore. That's actually quite impressive for countries in SE Asia.
    - pydry 5y ago
      I saw a good number of homeless camping in, for instance, East Coast park.
      - Clewza313 5y ago
        Yes, there are an estimated 1,000 people sleeping rough. The study below determined that 40% of them actually own/rent housing, but don't use it because of eg. family conflicts, while the remainder either choose not to apply or have somehow fallen through the cracks of the system. https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/gia/article/singapore's-hidden-homeless-insights-from-a-nationwide-street-count https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/gia/article/singapore's-hidden-hom...
      - qsi 5y ago
        Erhm, if you want to camp in East Coast Park (or anywhere on public land in Singapore), you need to apply for a permit and it's only allowed at designated camping grounds. The campers you saw were recreational, and seldom stay for more than one night. On most weekdays you won't see any tents at East Coast.
collinglass 5y ago
This was a great read from the man himself: https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-First-Singapore-1965-2000/dp/0060197765/ https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-First-Singapore-1965-2000...
- t3rse 5y ago
  Should be required reading within education systems in developing countries. I'm not saying LKY was perfect and everything he did was right, I am saying his topics would have been more relevant for me (African, grew up in Nairobi) than WWII or the history of Europe.
  - pydry 5y ago
    He was an overrated thug. What good he did (e.g. HDBs) was largely a result of arm twisting and fear - of domestic communists, and being smart enough to listen to Albert Winsemius (attracting foreign investment). He's popular in the Western media because he treated foreign investors like kings. They're happy to trumpet the successes and sweep the uglier side under the carpet and indulge the cult of personality he built. Singapore's geography, meanwhile, is not given nearly enough credit. It had probably the world's most strategically located deep water port and being a city state helps keep the government on its toes and avoid corruption (in stark contrast to, say, Brazil/Myanmar) : https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19027/w19027.pdf https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19027/w190... This is why a lot of its success is not really replicable elsewhere.
    - tim333 5y ago
      They've had some good results though. From poor and third worldy they now rank GNP PPP/capita #2 (USA #7) Corruption perceptions index #3 (USA #26) Life expectancy #5 (USA #40) they must have been doing something right. I'm sure the US was way ahead on all of those back in 1965. Also I was in that part of the world last year when the race riots broke out in the US and it looked terrible - Singapore is one of the most racially mixed countries in the world and seems to deal with that much better.
TedShiller 5y ago
Corruption
- JimDabell 5y ago
  Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Singapore
  - pydry 5y ago
    Accusations of high level corruption will see you bankrupted by libel lawsuits. It's entirely possible that the ruling elite have nothing to hide but they hardly act like it.
  - anticodon 5y ago
    I find it hard to believe that a country that was (or maybe is) a transportation hub for drugs and still is a money laundry for the SE Asia, can be free of corruption.
  - TedShiller 5y ago
    If you believe that then you don’t know how the Singaporean government works
  - ValentineC 5y ago
    Singapore doesn't have much "corruption", but we have: - the highest-paid politicians in the world [1]; - political offices with poorly-defined job scopes [2]; and - a track record of installing PAP (the dominant party) members in government-linked positions if they somehow fail to win an election [3]. [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/04/21/20-highest-paid-world-leaders-president-trump/39352195/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/04/21/20-highest-p... [2] https://mothership.sg/2021/02/pritam-singh-cdc-mayors/ https://mothership.sg/2021/02/pritam-singh-cdc-mayors/ [3] https://www.straitstimes.com/politics/ntuc-reaffirms-support-for-ng-chee-meng-to-stay-on-as-labour-chief-despite-election-loss https://www.straitstimes.com/politics/ntuc-reaffirms-support...
andi999 5y ago
Can anybody tell me what 'a onetime Fabian' means?
- ForHackernews 5y ago
  > [the Fabian Society; from the members' belief in slow rather than revolutionary change in government] : of, relating to, or being a society of socialists organized in England in 1884 to spread socialist principles gradually https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society
  - andi999 5y ago
    Thanks! Is this actually common knowledge in the UK (and US?)?
    - ForHackernews 5y ago
      To a reader of the London Review of Books? Almost certainly. To the general public? Probably not. Though perhaps worth mentioning that the Fabian Society has long been influential in the British Labour Party, so plenty of Labour party members or folks in unions will have a passing familiarity.

74 points by betocmn 5y ago

Men in White is another good book that focuses on the PAP and their role in Singapore post independence. https://www.amazon.com/dp/9814266248/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_VHBTNG8N8W99H7BA00ER https://www.amazon.com/dp/9814266248/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_...

Clewza313 5y ago

It's nice to read a capsule history of Singapore's history that doesn't toe the official line, but this is still laying it on a little too thick. For example, the supposedly "crash-prone trains" that carry some 3.3 million people on an average day have actually had a grand total of two (2) accidents since 1987, resulting in precisely zero (0) fatalities, and the "destitution of its underclass" is a bit much in a country where essentially everybody is entitled to a tiny but nearly-free rental flat.

djrobstep 5y ago
> essentially everybody is entitled to a tiny but nearly-free rental flat That is straight out wrong. Migrant workers are forced to live in terrible, cramped conditions (a big contributor to the spread of covid in singapore): https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2020/opinion/why-singapores-covid-19-cases-growing https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2020/opinion/why-si...
- Clewza313 5y ago
  We're talking about different things here. You're talking about non-Singaporean migrant workers, who are poor but not "destitute", since they have paid jobs, food and shelter. I'm talking about the poorest Singaporeans, often unemployed and/or elderly who are entitled to meager but survivable benefits, including cash handouts and heavily subsidized housing. It's not an enviable life, and SG could and should do better, but neither is it "destitution" on the scale of street beggars in (say) India or Indonesia.
  - hnick 5y ago
    One thing that is striking when visiting Singapore is the number of elderly people working basic jobs in fast food, street stalls, and similar roles. I don't know enough to judge their financial well-being, but it's very different to what we see here in Australia. Without more information I can't even say if it's mainly because over here we are reluctant to employ the elderly at all, I'm sure some Australians need the money too. It's just different.
    - AussieWog93 5y ago
      It's definitely starting to happen in Melbourne. Go to Red Rooster at Southern Cross and try to spot the non-pensioner. I think too many young people are quick to forget that there are many boomers who didn't get the opportunity to own property back in the day, and they're fucked over by the bubble even harder than we are.
    - Clewza313 5y ago
      The main driver here (IMHO) is that Singapore's pay-as-you-go pension system is/was quite patchy, particularly for the self-employed, who were exempted a long time and even today only need to contribute to their health insurance. Many of the elderly workers never accumulated a pension, so they need to work in menial jobs to support themselves. In 2014 and 2018, the government finally introduced a set of meager benefits for those born in the 1940s and 1950s, but it's almost entirely focused on medical expenses and far from a "real" state pension. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merdeka_Generation_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merdeka_Generation_Package
      - refurb 5y ago
        Yup. Many of the folks in their 70s and 80’s were in their prime working years when Singapore was far from as wealthy as it is today and before a lot of the forced savings programs (CPF). Many aren’t destitute, they have an HDB that’s worth a lot, they have healthcare that is heavily subsidized, but not much else for daily expenses.
- roenxi 5y ago
  You raise the interesting question of why would someone travel long distances to live in terrible cramped conditions.
  - pydry 5y ago
    Desperation, usually.
  - ValentineC 5y ago
    > You raise the interesting question of why would someone travel long distances to live in terrible cramped conditions. I found this [1]: > Before he left home, friends and relatives who had worked in Singapore told of a dream city where the roads were clean, people were friendly, and everyone followed the law. [1] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/singapore-muslim-migrant-workers-ramadan-fasting-10338508 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/singapore-mu...
  - djrobstep 5y ago
    A question with a very obvious answer: Desperation and exploitation.
borepop 5y ago
Singapore has no minimum wage. If its underclass were not destitute, I would think that would be rather surprising.
- Clewza313 5y ago
  The unemployed (short or long term) with no assets or family assistance are entitled to ComCare subsidies, which are designed specifically to stop people from falling into destitution: https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Short-to-Medium-Term-Assistance.aspx https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Short-to-Medium-Term-Assist... https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx https://msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx Here's the BBC on what this looks like in practice: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26349689 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26349689
- anchpop 5y ago
  Without commenting on Singapore, many countries have no minimum wage without negative consequence. It can be substituted with strong unions or social programs. In fact minimum wage is kind of a blunt instrument. People often say that everyone should be paid a living wage, but a living wage for a single mom with four kids is much higher than a living wage for a highschooler who lives with his parents. A minimum wage high enough to guarantee the mom a living wage would almost certainly make illegal many job opportunities the highschooler would love to have. I would prefer the government guarantee everyone a dignified life rather than try to use the minimum wage (which fundamentally only affects working people, not everyone)
  - thisrod 5y ago
    This is indeed a problem, but there is a very simple and effective solution that Australians call "youth wages".
    - logicchains 5y ago
      It's not very effective if you look at youth unemployement compared to a country like Singapore. Young adults who miss out the chance to get work experience when they're younger get completely shafted, because employers demand experience but nobody wants to give them the chance to gain that experience because of how much it costs.
jesterson 5y ago
> essentially everybody is entitled to a tiny but nearly-free rental flat It's been pointed out already, but pretty much every word in this part of sentence is wrong. You may want to learn a bit more about Singapore HDB. Ah, I beg your pardon, you're absolutely right about tiny part. Short answer: not everybody, not entitled, not anywhere nearly free (where is this even comes from?).
- refurb 5y ago
  Overly broad and vague, but not that far off the mark. If you're a citizen or PR you are entitled to an HDB if your income isn't too high. If you can't afford to buy an HDB (with many gov't grants), you can rent an HDB. If you're really low income, the rent can be very low (ten's of SGD per month). So basically if you're a SC/PR, you won't go without decent housing in Singapore. That's actually quite impressive for countries in SE Asia.
  - pydry 5y ago
    I saw a good number of homeless camping in, for instance, East Coast park.
    - Clewza313 5y ago
      Yes, there are an estimated 1,000 people sleeping rough. The study below determined that 40% of them actually own/rent housing, but don't use it because of eg. family conflicts, while the remainder either choose not to apply or have somehow fallen through the cracks of the system. https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/gia/article/singapore's-hidden-homeless-insights-from-a-nationwide-street-count https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/gia/article/singapore's-hidden-hom...
    - qsi 5y ago
      Erhm, if you want to camp in East Coast Park (or anywhere on public land in Singapore), you need to apply for a permit and it's only allowed at designated camping grounds. The campers you saw were recreational, and seldom stay for more than one night. On most weekdays you won't see any tents at East Coast.

collinglass 5y ago

This was a great read from the man himself: https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-First-Singapore-1965-2000/dp/0060197765/ https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-First-Singapore-1965-2000...

t3rse 5y ago
Should be required reading within education systems in developing countries. I'm not saying LKY was perfect and everything he did was right, I am saying his topics would have been more relevant for me (African, grew up in Nairobi) than WWII or the history of Europe.
- pydry 5y ago
  He was an overrated thug. What good he did (e.g. HDBs) was largely a result of arm twisting and fear - of domestic communists, and being smart enough to listen to Albert Winsemius (attracting foreign investment). He's popular in the Western media because he treated foreign investors like kings. They're happy to trumpet the successes and sweep the uglier side under the carpet and indulge the cult of personality he built. Singapore's geography, meanwhile, is not given nearly enough credit. It had probably the world's most strategically located deep water port and being a city state helps keep the government on its toes and avoid corruption (in stark contrast to, say, Brazil/Myanmar) : https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19027/w19027.pdf https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19027/w190... This is why a lot of its success is not really replicable elsewhere.
  - tim333 5y ago
    They've had some good results though. From poor and third worldy they now rank GNP PPP/capita #2 (USA #7) Corruption perceptions index #3 (USA #26) Life expectancy #5 (USA #40) they must have been doing something right. I'm sure the US was way ahead on all of those back in 1965. Also I was in that part of the world last year when the race riots broke out in the US and it looked terrible - Singapore is one of the most racially mixed countries in the world and seems to deal with that much better.

TedShiller 5y ago

Corruption

JimDabell 5y ago
Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Singapore
- pydry 5y ago
  Accusations of high level corruption will see you bankrupted by libel lawsuits. It's entirely possible that the ruling elite have nothing to hide but they hardly act like it.
- anticodon 5y ago
  I find it hard to believe that a country that was (or maybe is) a transportation hub for drugs and still is a money laundry for the SE Asia, can be free of corruption.
- TedShiller 5y ago
  If you believe that then you don’t know how the Singaporean government works
- ValentineC 5y ago
  Singapore doesn't have much "corruption", but we have: - the highest-paid politicians in the world [1]; - political offices with poorly-defined job scopes [2]; and - a track record of installing PAP (the dominant party) members in government-linked positions if they somehow fail to win an election [3]. [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/04/21/20-highest-paid-world-leaders-president-trump/39352195/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/04/21/20-highest-p... [2] https://mothership.sg/2021/02/pritam-singh-cdc-mayors/ https://mothership.sg/2021/02/pritam-singh-cdc-mayors/ [3] https://www.straitstimes.com/politics/ntuc-reaffirms-support-for-ng-chee-meng-to-stay-on-as-labour-chief-despite-election-loss https://www.straitstimes.com/politics/ntuc-reaffirms-support...

andi999 5y ago

Can anybody tell me what 'a onetime Fabian' means?

ForHackernews 5y ago
> [the Fabian Society; from the members' belief in slow rather than revolutionary change in government] : of, relating to, or being a society of socialists organized in England in 1884 to spread socialist principles gradually https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society
- andi999 5y ago
  Thanks! Is this actually common knowledge in the UK (and US?)?
  - ForHackernews 5y ago
    To a reader of the London Review of Books? Almost certainly. To the general public? Probably not. Though perhaps worth mentioning that the Fabian Society has long been influential in the British Labour Party, so plenty of Labour party members or folks in unions will have a passing familiarity.