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This is a great example of technology that refuses to embrace how human brains actually work. The lawyers say that drivers must be engaged and ready to take ov

This is a great example of technology that refuses to embrace how human brains actually work. The lawyers say that drivers must be engaged and ready to take over while the technology does a good enough job that it makes driving as un-engaging as possible. This is not how human brains work. It doesn't help that the CEO is lying to investors and customers that "full self-driving" is right around the corner and Tesla's are on the cusp of providing robot Taxi services.

coldtea 5y ago
>The lawyers say that drivers must be engaged and ready to take over while the technology does a good enough job that it makes driving as un-engaging as possible. This is not how human brains work. Yes. "Drivers must be engaged and ready to take over" is not really a thing humans will ever do (if they have a tech that can sorta drive itself, they will 100% get distracted) And even worse, the name of the feature and the whole marketing makes it appear as its Level 5, where it's not even a solid 4.
- jfim 5y ago
  > if they have a tech that can sorta drive itself, they will 100% get distracted That's been known for a while. Some of the automation systems that have a human in the loop will actually lower the level of automation every once in a while and ask the human to take over so that the human does not get complacent. That's not really a popular way to sell cars though. Having a car that requests a lane change or to re-center the car in the lane every once in a while isn't what people are really looking for, even though it would increase driver attentiveness.
- buran77 5y ago
  Worse yet, the AP beta many customers are testing now is explicitly billed as "full self-driving". Which it isn't. For people who assume the AP is some breakthrough in self driving tech, it doesn't feel too different from this [0] 2013 Mercedes Benz video and demo. Just that different CEOs have different appetites for lying to customers. [0] https://twitter.com/sascha_p/status/1321469775051186177 https://twitter.com/sascha_p/status/1321469775051186177
- ska 5y ago
  > where it's not even a solid 4. It's not any kind of 4, let alone solid. It's tech level 2 working on making 3 solid.
aphextron 5y ago
This is a great example of sales and marketing outpacing technology. Tesla has been absolutely negligent from the very beginning by marketing Autopilot as "full self driving". Full level 4 self driving capability does not exist, and will not exist for a long time to come. They have repeatedly lied to the public through their advertising to make people think that it does. What Autopilot is is a very sophisticated form a cruise control, and nothing more. Those peoples' deaths are on Elon's hands for purposely selling a false bill of goods.
- cj 5y ago
  > This is a great example of sales and marketing ... I don’t know if shifting the responsibility from the technology to marketing is the right move here. It would be very easy for Tesla to do what every other car company already does with lane keeping, which is making sure the drivers hands are on the wheel. If I take my hands off the wheel of my VW for more than 30 or so seconds, lane keep assist turns off and I’ll drive straight into a tree if I don’t put my hand back on the wheel. ...or is Tesla’s philosophy that you shouldn’t need to touch the steering wheel turning a trip from point a to point b, even without level 4 self driving? How do Tesla’s verify drivers are engaged? And how does the system penalize drivers when they aren’t engaged for extended periods? There is definitely a problem with their marketing. But the core problem is the technology, IMO.
  - aphextron 5y ago
    Every other car manufacturer makes it a point to ensure that drivers are never under the impression that things like LKAS and ACC are meant to supplant the drivers undivided full attention to the road. Toyota specifically has held back their technology for this very reason. Even GM Super Cruise, which is arguably more advanced than Autopilot, is marketed solely as an advanced form a cruise control, with no mention anywhere of any kind of autonomy, and is only enabled when the system is certain the driver is in the seat watching the road.
lhorie 5y ago
My very-non-self-driving car beeps when I'm not wearing my seatbelt; clearly technology to detect the driver's presence is not rocket science. Lawyers saying it's the "driver's responsibility" strike me as a fairly weak argument, if a Tesla is at all allowed to autonomously accelerate without a person physically putting their butt on the driver seat in the first place. </two-cents>
p1mrx 5y ago
I'm even somewhat concerned about single-pedal driving, because it weakens the driver's reflex to find the brake pedal in an emergency. Autopilot with real-time human backup is just a whole other level of madness.
freeflight 5y ago
> It doesn't help that the CEO is lying to investors and customers that "full self-driving" is right around the corner and Tesla's are on the cusp of providing robot Taxi services. Yup Tesla's Vegas Loop, which is a completely controlled and isolated environment, somehow still needs drivers in those Teslas. I guess that could be a legal requirement, but I'm pretty sure if Tesla actually got the full self-driving to work in the loop then they would have used that at least for PR. The whole thing is just such a bad joke considering the same tunnel could be used for a self-driving subway/train, which would be a massive improvement in terms of throughput over having people enter and exit cars that are not at all designed for public transport.
treeman79 5y ago
This! Even driving Highway Hypnosis is a major problem in many areas. It why some roads in deserts curve a lot. Helps keep the mind alert. Take away any active involvement and it will be far worse. https://www.healthline.com/health/highway-hypnosis#causes https://www.healthline.com/health/highway-hypnosis#causes
- ajross 5y ago
  FWIW: that kind of human failure (loss of attention in boring/featureless/static environments) is exactly where automation is best and most productively applied. It seems weird to see an argument against automation framed like this. You want help people pay attention better by making it more dangerous for them to nod off?
  - treeman79 5y ago
    Well the expectation is to have incomplete automation, full attention and zero engagement. Those don’t go together.
mlindner 5y ago
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1384254194975010826 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1384254194975010826 The car hadn't purchased autopilot.
sss111 5y ago
Could this technology go the way of Modular Smartphones or Virtual Reality?

coldtea 5y ago

>The lawyers say that drivers must be engaged and ready to take over while the technology does a good enough job that it makes driving as un-engaging as possible. This is not how human brains work. Yes. "Drivers must be engaged and ready to take over" is not really a thing humans will ever do (if they have a tech that can sorta drive itself, they will 100% get distracted) And even worse, the name of the feature and the whole marketing makes it appear as its Level 5, where it's not even a solid 4.

jfim 5y ago
> if they have a tech that can sorta drive itself, they will 100% get distracted That's been known for a while. Some of the automation systems that have a human in the loop will actually lower the level of automation every once in a while and ask the human to take over so that the human does not get complacent. That's not really a popular way to sell cars though. Having a car that requests a lane change or to re-center the car in the lane every once in a while isn't what people are really looking for, even though it would increase driver attentiveness.
buran77 5y ago
Worse yet, the AP beta many customers are testing now is explicitly billed as "full self-driving". Which it isn't. For people who assume the AP is some breakthrough in self driving tech, it doesn't feel too different from this [0] 2013 Mercedes Benz video and demo. Just that different CEOs have different appetites for lying to customers. [0] https://twitter.com/sascha_p/status/1321469775051186177 https://twitter.com/sascha_p/status/1321469775051186177
ska 5y ago
> where it's not even a solid 4. It's not any kind of 4, let alone solid. It's tech level 2 working on making 3 solid.

aphextron 5y ago

This is a great example of sales and marketing outpacing technology. Tesla has been absolutely negligent from the very beginning by marketing Autopilot as "full self driving". Full level 4 self driving capability does not exist, and will not exist for a long time to come. They have repeatedly lied to the public through their advertising to make people think that it does. What Autopilot is is a very sophisticated form a cruise control, and nothing more. Those peoples' deaths are on Elon's hands for purposely selling a false bill of goods.

cj 5y ago
> This is a great example of sales and marketing ... I don’t know if shifting the responsibility from the technology to marketing is the right move here. It would be very easy for Tesla to do what every other car company already does with lane keeping, which is making sure the drivers hands are on the wheel. If I take my hands off the wheel of my VW for more than 30 or so seconds, lane keep assist turns off and I’ll drive straight into a tree if I don’t put my hand back on the wheel. ...or is Tesla’s philosophy that you shouldn’t need to touch the steering wheel turning a trip from point a to point b, even without level 4 self driving? How do Tesla’s verify drivers are engaged? And how does the system penalize drivers when they aren’t engaged for extended periods? There is definitely a problem with their marketing. But the core problem is the technology, IMO.
- aphextron 5y ago
  Every other car manufacturer makes it a point to ensure that drivers are never under the impression that things like LKAS and ACC are meant to supplant the drivers undivided full attention to the road. Toyota specifically has held back their technology for this very reason. Even GM Super Cruise, which is arguably more advanced than Autopilot, is marketed solely as an advanced form a cruise control, with no mention anywhere of any kind of autonomy, and is only enabled when the system is certain the driver is in the seat watching the road.

lhorie 5y ago

My very-non-self-driving car beeps when I'm not wearing my seatbelt; clearly technology to detect the driver's presence is not rocket science. Lawyers saying it's the "driver's responsibility" strike me as a fairly weak argument, if a Tesla is at all allowed to autonomously accelerate without a person physically putting their butt on the driver seat in the first place. </two-cents>

p1mrx 5y ago

I'm even somewhat concerned about single-pedal driving, because it weakens the driver's reflex to find the brake pedal in an emergency. Autopilot with real-time human backup is just a whole other level of madness.

freeflight 5y ago

> It doesn't help that the CEO is lying to investors and customers that "full self-driving" is right around the corner and Tesla's are on the cusp of providing robot Taxi services. Yup Tesla's Vegas Loop, which is a completely controlled and isolated environment, somehow still needs drivers in those Teslas. I guess that could be a legal requirement, but I'm pretty sure if Tesla actually got the full self-driving to work in the loop then they would have used that at least for PR. The whole thing is just such a bad joke considering the same tunnel could be used for a self-driving subway/train, which would be a massive improvement in terms of throughput over having people enter and exit cars that are not at all designed for public transport.

treeman79 5y ago

This! Even driving Highway Hypnosis is a major problem in many areas. It why some roads in deserts curve a lot. Helps keep the mind alert. Take away any active involvement and it will be far worse. https://www.healthline.com/health/highway-hypnosis#causes https://www.healthline.com/health/highway-hypnosis#causes

ajross 5y ago
FWIW: that kind of human failure (loss of attention in boring/featureless/static environments) is exactly where automation is best and most productively applied. It seems weird to see an argument against automation framed like this. You want help people pay attention better by making it more dangerous for them to nod off?
- treeman79 5y ago
  Well the expectation is to have incomplete automation, full attention and zero engagement. Those don’t go together.

mlindner 5y ago

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1384254194975010826 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1384254194975010826 The car hadn't purchased autopilot.

sss111 5y ago

Could this technology go the way of Modular Smartphones or Virtual Reality?