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America has the highest rate of incarceration in the world. The historical reduction in crime started before 1994, so there's not good evidence for a causal co

America has the highest rate of incarceration in the world. The historical reduction in crime started before 1994, so there's not good evidence for a causal connection (controversially, Dubner and Levitt in Freakonomics argued it was Roe v Wade that was largely responsible). Regardless, any system by which 8 percent of adult black men are in prison clearly has bigger problems. It would be much cheaper to tackle the problem at its source: structural racism and poverty.

spazrunaway 6y ago
>Regardless, any system by which 8 percent of adult black men are in prison clearly has bigger problems Agreed. Any chance they're committing more crimes? Or over half of all murders? We can control for poverty, which has been found to have a much weaker correlation with criminality than race. Systemic racism is a meaningless act of circular reasoning, because it seems to be defined only by statistical disparities, which themselves are attributed to systemic racism.
- bingbong70 6y ago
  American racism is clearly systemic/institutionalized... >And according to exoneration data, innocent African American suspects are 7 times more likely to be falsely convicted of murder than innocent white suspects. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26840501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26840501 Unfortunately spreading misleading information without second thought is yet another feature of white supremacist systems, not a bug.
  - spazrunaway 6y ago
    From your source: "Judging from exonerations, innocent black people are about seven times more likely to be convicted of murder than innocent white people. A major cause of the high number of black murder exonerations is the high homicide rate in the black community—a tragedy that kills many African Americans and sends many others to prison. Innocent defendants who are falsely convicted and exonerated do not contribute to this high homicide rate. They— like the families of victims who are killed—are deeply harmed by murders committed by others." 7x more murders per capita, 7x higher rates of false conviction. It's simple scaling. That means the system is being perfectly equitable.
    - bingbong70 6y ago
      >7x more murders per capita Source? > Official misconduct is more common in murder convictions that lead to exonerations of African American defendants > 87% of black exonerees that were sentenced to death were victims of official misconduct You should read the rest of the report because they make it clear institutional foulplay is a key component of the overcriminalization.
  - CountDrewku 6y ago
    Disagreement with the systemic racist ideology is a feature of white supremacy! How convenient! Unfortunately, people in cults get brainwashed and don't know it either. Here we have a prime example of how Jamestown and certain 1930s youth programs came into existence. Which color kool-aid are you going with? Fallacies of elimination are fun... Try forming an actual argument instead of just labeling everyone you disagree with as a white supremacist. Someone who so freely throws the word racist around, clearly doesn't think it holds much meaning.
culot 6y ago
- Define 'structural racism' and why it forces blacks to be far more criminal and violent than the rest of the population. - Can poverty explain, for example, why blacks in Wisconsin commit 2/3 of all violent crime while they are only 7% of the state's population? There are wholly White and Native American cities in Wisconsin that are dirt poor - the poorest - and yet they are not committing insanely high levels of crime.
- bingbong70 6y ago
  Criminalizing an underclass isn't a new concept, its been done in many places to many races around the world with varying success. >why it forces blacks to be far more criminal I think the fact that UK blacks commit crimes at a far lower rate than US whites throws a wrench in this type of oversimplification of the racial landscape.
  - spazrunaway 6y ago
    Citation badly needed. https://news.sky.com/story/amp/black-murder-victims-and-suspects-london-v-uk-11443656 https://news.sky.com/story/amp/black-murder-victims-and-susp... 3% of the population and 13% of the murders in the UK. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41887-020-00055-y https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41887-020-00055-y 5-6x homicide victimization rate vs whites, and 24x in males 18-24. These multiples are fairly consistent globally.
    - bingbong70 6y ago
      You may have misread the original statement. I'm comparing the US white crime rate to the UK black crime rate. It is clear US whites are far more likely to commit crimes.
      - spazrunaway 6y ago
        Source? It doesn't seem to be true for homicide. The US white rate is consistently between 3-4 per 100k, and the UK black rate is often above 5 per 100k. Either way, all this proves is that the UK is overall a safer country than the US. But the racial disparities within each country are remarkably similar.

spazrunaway 6y ago

>Regardless, any system by which 8 percent of adult black men are in prison clearly has bigger problems Agreed. Any chance they're committing more crimes? Or over half of all murders? We can control for poverty, which has been found to have a much weaker correlation with criminality than race. Systemic racism is a meaningless act of circular reasoning, because it seems to be defined only by statistical disparities, which themselves are attributed to systemic racism.

bingbong70 6y ago
American racism is clearly systemic/institutionalized... >And according to exoneration data, innocent African American suspects are 7 times more likely to be falsely convicted of murder than innocent white suspects. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26840501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26840501 Unfortunately spreading misleading information without second thought is yet another feature of white supremacist systems, not a bug.
- spazrunaway 6y ago
  From your source: "Judging from exonerations, innocent black people are about seven times more likely to be convicted of murder than innocent white people. A major cause of the high number of black murder exonerations is the high homicide rate in the black community—a tragedy that kills many African Americans and sends many others to prison. Innocent defendants who are falsely convicted and exonerated do not contribute to this high homicide rate. They— like the families of victims who are killed—are deeply harmed by murders committed by others." 7x more murders per capita, 7x higher rates of false conviction. It's simple scaling. That means the system is being perfectly equitable.
  - bingbong70 6y ago
    >7x more murders per capita Source? > Official misconduct is more common in murder convictions that lead to exonerations of African American defendants > 87% of black exonerees that were sentenced to death were victims of official misconduct You should read the rest of the report because they make it clear institutional foulplay is a key component of the overcriminalization.
- CountDrewku 6y ago
  Disagreement with the systemic racist ideology is a feature of white supremacy! How convenient! Unfortunately, people in cults get brainwashed and don't know it either. Here we have a prime example of how Jamestown and certain 1930s youth programs came into existence. Which color kool-aid are you going with? Fallacies of elimination are fun... Try forming an actual argument instead of just labeling everyone you disagree with as a white supremacist. Someone who so freely throws the word racist around, clearly doesn't think it holds much meaning.

culot 6y ago

- Define 'structural racism' and why it forces blacks to be far more criminal and violent than the rest of the population. - Can poverty explain, for example, why blacks in Wisconsin commit 2/3 of all violent crime while they are only 7% of the state's population? There are wholly White and Native American cities in Wisconsin that are dirt poor - the poorest - and yet they are not committing insanely high levels of crime.

bingbong70 6y ago
Criminalizing an underclass isn't a new concept, its been done in many places to many races around the world with varying success. >why it forces blacks to be far more criminal I think the fact that UK blacks commit crimes at a far lower rate than US whites throws a wrench in this type of oversimplification of the racial landscape.
- spazrunaway 6y ago
  Citation badly needed. https://news.sky.com/story/amp/black-murder-victims-and-suspects-london-v-uk-11443656 https://news.sky.com/story/amp/black-murder-victims-and-susp... 3% of the population and 13% of the murders in the UK. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41887-020-00055-y https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41887-020-00055-y 5-6x homicide victimization rate vs whites, and 24x in males 18-24. These multiples are fairly consistent globally.
  - bingbong70 6y ago
    You may have misread the original statement. I'm comparing the US white crime rate to the UK black crime rate. It is clear US whites are far more likely to commit crimes.
    - spazrunaway 6y ago
      Source? It doesn't seem to be true for homicide. The US white rate is consistently between 3-4 per 100k, and the UK black rate is often above 5 per 100k. Either way, all this proves is that the UK is overall a safer country than the US. But the racial disparities within each country are remarkably similar.