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Actually, the general love for Signal on HN is puzzling to me. It's nothing more than yet another centralised silo not owned by the users. End-to-end encryption

Actually, the general love for Signal on HN is puzzling to me. It's nothing more than yet another centralised silo not owned by the users. End-to-end encryption? I'd take federation over it any day.

egberts1 6y ago
there is always Matrix app. Some may argue that Matrix still a centralized server by the virtue of seeding your group info somewhere. But this seeding can be done via paper-only thereby it is still a true decentralized messaging server.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  No, there is always xmpp. Matrix is just an app, and we need a federated protocol. I think that Matrix will never have an alternative server implementation made by a competing party, which makes it's main selling point void.
  - egberts1 6y ago
    Manyverse (Sweden) app does Matrix well. But it’s design intent isn’t FEDERATION, not at all.
  - galbar 6y ago
    Matrix is not an app. It is a protocol. You can find the specification here: https://matrix.org/docs/spec/ https://matrix.org/docs/spec/ There are also multiple client and server implementations already. You can find them here: https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now/ https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now/ There are also at least two companies offering homeserver hosting: https://matrix.org/hosting/ https://matrix.org/hosting/
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      It is not a federated protocol. It is an app that has some internally developed protocol, which makes it hardly more than an app, really. As long as one for-profit company decides how it changes and evolves, it's nothing more than that.
      - galbar 6y ago
        Maybe I'm missing something. What do you understand by federated protocol? As I understand it, Matrix seems to be an open protocol that supports federation. The open protocol part is evident by the extense documentation of the protocol specification that I linked in my previous message and by the fact that anyone can propose a change in the spec: https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/proposals/ https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/proposals/ You can see how the protocol supports federation here: https://matrix.org/docs/spec/server_server/r0.1.4 https://matrix.org/docs/spec/server_server/r0.1.4 As for the organization governing the protocol, there is The Matrix.org Foundation: https://matrix.org/foundation/ https://matrix.org/foundation/ In the foundation page it states it is "a non-profit UK Community Interest Company, incorporated to act as the neutral guardian of the standard on behalf of the whole Matrix community"
        Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        by an open federated protocol I understand the likes of email or xmpp, or TCP, for that matter. Standardized and developed by an independent entity, for better or worse. Where the power of any single developer is checked by other developers and the standards body. Currently, matrix.org owners can unilaterally change the protocol in any way they like, upgrading their server that hosts the vast majority of users, and all the other independent implementations would be left in the dust. Until this is possible, it is not really a protocol, it's more like a private API available on multiple instances.
        galbar 6y ago
        So if all goes well, it will become an "open federated protocol", according to your definition, in a few years when it is more stable, mature and multiple interests (companies) are governing its direction? Sounds like a fair position to have.
  - kitkat_new 6y ago
    Matrix is no app. Matrix an open protocol for decentralized communication that works through federation. Further, there is a alternative server implementation: Conduit. What main selling point are you talking about?
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      If you make a device (say, wireless walkie-talkie) that can communicate with other devices of this type, it is not yet an open standard protocol. It's just your proprietary thingy that you do with some communication properties. Same thing here. It's a product of one commercial company, which fully decides how it works. Conduit is not finished, and, given the monolytic nature of matrix protocol (as opposed to XMPP, by the way) it will likely never be finished. Even on it's GitHub page it writes with big big letters: DO NOT RELY ON IT.
      - kitkat_new 6y ago
        > If you make a device (say, wireless walkie-talkie) that can communicate with other devices of this type, it is not yet an open standard protocol. It's just your proprietary thingy that you do with some communication properties. True, but this isn't the case. The device you are talking about is Element, which uses the protocol. Here you can find the protocol: https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/ https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/ It is an open standard. > Same thing here. It's a product of one commercial company, which fully decides how it works. You, again, conflate Matrix with Element, which btw. does not fully decide how it works. Read more about that here: https://matrix.org/foundation/ https://matrix.org/foundation/ > Conduit is not finished, and, given the monolytic nature of matrix protocol (as opposed to XMPP, by the way) it will likely never be finished. Even on it's GitHub page it writes with big big letters: DO NOT RELY ON IT. Conduit is a server of a competing entity. I didn't claim it was finished or will ever be finished in the way that there won't be any development any more.
        Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        > It is an open standard. what's it's RFC number? which body does govern the development of this 'protocol'?

Actually, the general love for Signal on HN is puzzling to me. It's nothing more than yet another centralised silo not owned by the users. End-to-end encryption? I'd take federation over it any day.

egberts1 6y ago

there is always Matrix app. Some may argue that Matrix still a centralized server by the virtue of seeding your group info somewhere. But this seeding can be done via paper-only thereby it is still a true decentralized messaging server.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
No, there is always xmpp. Matrix is just an app, and we need a federated protocol. I think that Matrix will never have an alternative server implementation made by a competing party, which makes it's main selling point void.
- egberts1 6y ago
  Manyverse (Sweden) app does Matrix well. But it’s design intent isn’t FEDERATION, not at all.
- galbar 6y ago
  Matrix is not an app. It is a protocol. You can find the specification here: https://matrix.org/docs/spec/ https://matrix.org/docs/spec/ There are also multiple client and server implementations already. You can find them here: https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now/ https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now/ There are also at least two companies offering homeserver hosting: https://matrix.org/hosting/ https://matrix.org/hosting/
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    It is not a federated protocol. It is an app that has some internally developed protocol, which makes it hardly more than an app, really. As long as one for-profit company decides how it changes and evolves, it's nothing more than that.
    - galbar 6y ago
      Maybe I'm missing something. What do you understand by federated protocol? As I understand it, Matrix seems to be an open protocol that supports federation. The open protocol part is evident by the extense documentation of the protocol specification that I linked in my previous message and by the fact that anyone can propose a change in the spec: https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/proposals/ https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/proposals/ You can see how the protocol supports federation here: https://matrix.org/docs/spec/server_server/r0.1.4 https://matrix.org/docs/spec/server_server/r0.1.4 As for the organization governing the protocol, there is The Matrix.org Foundation: https://matrix.org/foundation/ https://matrix.org/foundation/ In the foundation page it states it is "a non-profit UK Community Interest Company, incorporated to act as the neutral guardian of the standard on behalf of the whole Matrix community"
      - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        by an open federated protocol I understand the likes of email or xmpp, or TCP, for that matter. Standardized and developed by an independent entity, for better or worse. Where the power of any single developer is checked by other developers and the standards body. Currently, matrix.org owners can unilaterally change the protocol in any way they like, upgrading their server that hosts the vast majority of users, and all the other independent implementations would be left in the dust. Until this is possible, it is not really a protocol, it's more like a private API available on multiple instances.
        galbar 6y ago
        So if all goes well, it will become an "open federated protocol", according to your definition, in a few years when it is more stable, mature and multiple interests (companies) are governing its direction? Sounds like a fair position to have.
- kitkat_new 6y ago
  Matrix is no app. Matrix an open protocol for decentralized communication that works through federation. Further, there is a alternative server implementation: Conduit. What main selling point are you talking about?
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    If you make a device (say, wireless walkie-talkie) that can communicate with other devices of this type, it is not yet an open standard protocol. It's just your proprietary thingy that you do with some communication properties. Same thing here. It's a product of one commercial company, which fully decides how it works. Conduit is not finished, and, given the monolytic nature of matrix protocol (as opposed to XMPP, by the way) it will likely never be finished. Even on it's GitHub page it writes with big big letters: DO NOT RELY ON IT.
    - kitkat_new 6y ago
      > If you make a device (say, wireless walkie-talkie) that can communicate with other devices of this type, it is not yet an open standard protocol. It's just your proprietary thingy that you do with some communication properties. True, but this isn't the case. The device you are talking about is Element, which uses the protocol. Here you can find the protocol: https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/ https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/ It is an open standard. > Same thing here. It's a product of one commercial company, which fully decides how it works. You, again, conflate Matrix with Element, which btw. does not fully decide how it works. Read more about that here: https://matrix.org/foundation/ https://matrix.org/foundation/ > Conduit is not finished, and, given the monolytic nature of matrix protocol (as opposed to XMPP, by the way) it will likely never be finished. Even on it's GitHub page it writes with big big letters: DO NOT RELY ON IT. Conduit is a server of a competing entity. I didn't claim it was finished or will ever be finished in the way that there won't be any development any more.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        > It is an open standard. what's it's RFC number? which body does govern the development of this 'protocol'?