4 ms·

Hi, author of TFA here. Thanks for your comments :) You're right the harmonic model used is a bit of a bodge. I didn't know that about hammer position, very in

Hi, author of TFA here. Thanks for your comments :) You're right the harmonic model used is a bit of a bodge. I didn't know that about hammer position, very interesting. Let me know if you ever get around to trying different timbres in the code. I think we are more in agreement than you think on clustering, though. Although I neglected to discuss what's anatomically reachable, and also the nuances of history, my point is that the desired subset you mention can be defined by using clustering to pick a subset that sounds good.

vnorilo 5y ago
Thank you for writing it! I think perhaps the way I would state the subset problem is that white keys are in a way the "subset that sounds good" to the culture where the piano keyboard arose. More in the vein of discussion than suggesting you'd need to change anything :) The black keys are means of transposing that subset. It is a very interesting but in a way unrelated insight that the black keys also form a consonant group. And then music and musicians naturally coevolve with instruments and do whatever they please!
jacquesm 5y ago
Are you aware of the Janko keyboard?
- recursive 5y ago
  I had not heard of it. It looks similarly motivated the harmonic table layout. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_table_note_layout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_table_note_layout
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    It's a bit different actually, the same keys repeat multiple times 'above' each other, in two alternating rows with half overlap. I've built a little device that you set on top of a regular piano keyboard to experiment with it but that wasn't very satisfactory. Doing a full scale conversion would be quite a job.
    - recursive 5y ago
      The harmonic table layout has multiple keys for each note too. It is different, but it seems to be borne out of a similar motivation. Changing keys on standard keyboards just seems unnecessarily difficult.
- mannykannot 5y ago
  In a recent article about his Sixtyforgan (an organ made from a Commodore 64 and a spring reverberation tank), Linus Akesson explained how he had used the key layout of a chromatic button accordion. This appears to differ from the Janko layout, though they both apparently share the feature that "if you know the shape of a particular chord or scale, you can automatically play the same thing in another key just by moving your hand" (so long as you have five rows of buttons, in the accordion layout.) There are many ways to skin this cat apparently, though as with QWERTY, established convention is hard to change. https://www.linusakesson.net/sixtyforgan/index.php https://www.linusakesson.net/sixtyforgan/index.php
- sideshowb 5y ago
  I think I've seen that before yes. On a related note I've been learning to play accordion this past year.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Oh neat! Given the context I'm assuming a button accordion? My dad used to play one.
    - sideshowb 5y ago
      Actually a piano accordion, but it's been refreshing learning to play the bass buttons. They increment in 5ths along the main axis, but with an offset row also giving quick access to a major 3rd up or semitone down. My primary instrument is piano so it's definitely involved rewiring my concept of which notes are 'close' and 'far' to match the circle of fifths. Until now I never noticed how in addition to the usual cadences, many tunes have further rising/falling sequences of 5ths in the bass.

vnorilo 5y ago

Thank you for writing it! I think perhaps the way I would state the subset problem is that white keys are in a way the "subset that sounds good" to the culture where the piano keyboard arose. More in the vein of discussion than suggesting you'd need to change anything :) The black keys are means of transposing that subset. It is a very interesting but in a way unrelated insight that the black keys also form a consonant group. And then music and musicians naturally coevolve with instruments and do whatever they please!

jacquesm 5y ago

Are you aware of the Janko keyboard?

recursive 5y ago
I had not heard of it. It looks similarly motivated the harmonic table layout. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_table_note_layout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_table_note_layout
- jacquesm 5y ago
  It's a bit different actually, the same keys repeat multiple times 'above' each other, in two alternating rows with half overlap. I've built a little device that you set on top of a regular piano keyboard to experiment with it but that wasn't very satisfactory. Doing a full scale conversion would be quite a job.
  - recursive 5y ago
    The harmonic table layout has multiple keys for each note too. It is different, but it seems to be borne out of a similar motivation. Changing keys on standard keyboards just seems unnecessarily difficult.
mannykannot 5y ago
In a recent article about his Sixtyforgan (an organ made from a Commodore 64 and a spring reverberation tank), Linus Akesson explained how he had used the key layout of a chromatic button accordion. This appears to differ from the Janko layout, though they both apparently share the feature that "if you know the shape of a particular chord or scale, you can automatically play the same thing in another key just by moving your hand" (so long as you have five rows of buttons, in the accordion layout.) There are many ways to skin this cat apparently, though as with QWERTY, established convention is hard to change. https://www.linusakesson.net/sixtyforgan/index.php https://www.linusakesson.net/sixtyforgan/index.php
sideshowb 5y ago
I think I've seen that before yes. On a related note I've been learning to play accordion this past year.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Oh neat! Given the context I'm assuming a button accordion? My dad used to play one.
  - sideshowb 5y ago
    Actually a piano accordion, but it's been refreshing learning to play the bass buttons. They increment in 5ths along the main axis, but with an offset row also giving quick access to a major 3rd up or semitone down. My primary instrument is piano so it's definitely involved rewiring my concept of which notes are 'close' and 'far' to match the circle of fifths. Until now I never noticed how in addition to the usual cadences, many tunes have further rising/falling sequences of 5ths in the bass.