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If the immigrants were drug dealers yes, but (1) the survey responders are researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences (ICML and NeurIPS) and (2) th

If the immigrants were drug dealers yes, but (1) the survey responders are researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences (ICML and NeurIPS) and (2) there is a positive correlation between immigration and technological innovation. Based on these points, restricting immigration of AI researchers looks rather dumb.

luckylion 6y ago
> If the immigrants were drug dealers yes, but (1) the survey responders are researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences They aren't individually rejected though, are they? They're worried about immigration issues, but those aren't usually "immigration policies for AI researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences", but they apply to everyone.
rayiner 6y ago
“Dumb” by what metric? Even high education/income immigrants have cultural incompatibilities that may justify wanting to restrict immigration. My family is first generation immigrants from Bangladesh, and my wife’s family is descended from the pioneers that settled the west coast. We’re quite westernized, but there are profound cultural disconnects under the surface. For example, like many Asians, my dad has a very paternalistic view of government and elites. He thinks the job of leaders should be to “educate the common people” to accept what’s good for them. This drives my wife nuts when they argue politics, because she fully embraces traditional American populism (“wisdom of the ‘common man’”). Even high education/income immigrants change the culture of the country. (And “culture matters” as anyone from Silicon Valley should know.) We can argue whether these changes are good or bad. But there is more to immigration than just economic effects.
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  > For example, like many Asians, my dad has a very paternalistic view of government and elites. He thinks the job of leaders should be to “educate the common people” to accept what’s good for them. This drives my wife nuts when they argue politics, because she fully embraces traditional American populism (“wisdom of the ‘common man’”). Are you trying to say the whole of America is made of your wives? You say "culture matters" but Silicon Valley would certainly not embrace the "wisdom of the common man". As a matter of fact most of the ideological stuff that comes from SV is hugely paternalistic in nature, such as the cult personalities of their CEOs. On top of that wasn't America made by immigrants so allowing them in is actually a more conservative choice than not?
  - xyzzyz 6y ago
    > On top of that wasn't America made by immigrants so allowing them in is actually a more conservative choice than not? There were relatively many immigrants in America at times, and relatively few at other times. However, overall, there were too few immigrants to say that the America was “made” by them, as opposed to being made by people who were born here. At best, you could argue that it was made by people who were descendants of immigrants, but then this is true about most nations of the world, as most nations comprise of people who are descendants to immigrants.
    - pm90 6y ago
      Most nations of the old world have had people living in its constituent lands for several centuries at the least. Immigration has not meaningfully shaped them, unless we talk about specific instances of forced population movement (partition of nations, ethnic cleansing etc.). The US has for most of its history had a significant population of immigrants, rising up to 10% of the population at the turn of the 20th century. It has absolutely been made by immigrants; people who decided to move to the US in search of better opportunities.
- VBprogrammer 6y ago
  > We’re quite westernized, but there are profound cultural disconnects under the surface. This seems prefaced on the idea that the cultural homogeneity is a desired state. I certainly acknowledge that immigration has some potential negative effects, particularly where large groups of immigrants congregate in one area, for example the British immigrants in the Spanish Costa del Sol. Your example doesn't strike me as one which I recognise as a problem. Even if neither your dad nor your wife are willing to give an inch in accepting the other may have a point, is this not better than neither of them having been exposed to that point in the first place?
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > This seems prefaced on the idea that the cultural homogeneity is a desired state. Cultural homogeneity has upsides and downsides. Some of the most successful countries in the world (Japan, the Scandinavian countries, etc., are culturally homogenous). For example, Tokyo wouldn’t work if it was culturally heterogenous. Culturally heterogenous cities all end up kind of looking like Toronto, London, New York, etc. Interesting and vibrant, but not exactly orderly and organized. > Your example doesn't strike me as one which I recognise as a problem. Even if neither your dad nor your wife are willing to give an inch in accepting the other may have a point, is this not better than neither of them having been exposed to that point in the first place? Except at the end of the day they both vote and have to live under the kinds of governments picked by the other. For example during COVID, my dad was completely unable to relate to why some people had civil liberties objections to lockdown orders. (Not just concluding, on the balance, that lockdowns outweighed the impact on civil liberties, but completely unable to understand there was even a balancing process at issue.) He welcomes the centralization of power in DC, the idea that a well-credentialed bureaucracy will tell the backwaters of the country what to do. (One of the things we forget is that elite immigrants are often elite in their home countries. My family is from the same educated, ideologically forward thinking tiny minority of people who decided it would be tenable to impose secularism in the 1972 Bangladesh constitution, on a country that’s overwhelmingly Muslim.) Of course this drives my wife nuts—her family kept moving west to get as far away from the government as physically possible. Now to some extent this parallels cultural conflicts that already exist in America. But large scale immigration certainly changes the balance. When I was growing up, Northern Virginia was what I’d call “traditional American elitist.” Where there is an elite, but being elite is considered somewhat unseemly, so even the elites pay homage to the “common man.” With the large scale Asian immigration to Northern Virginia over the last 30 years, the culture has changed quite dramatically. What used to be an “under the breath” hostility to the “rest of Virginia” has become an open one. We can debate about the merits of these views—but that’s not my point here. My point is that this cultural disconnect exists even with educated, high-income immigrants. And it’s entirely reasonable for folks who are already in the US to see that as a reason to oppose large scale immigration. Certainly, if the shoe were in the other foot, and Americans were streaming into Dhaka bringing with them their hedonistic individualism, there would be outrage among Bangladeshis.
- pm90 6y ago
  I’ve seen you trot out your background as some sort of evidence of requiring Immigration restriction while seemingly ignoring the fact that your very existence as a US citizen is a consequence of the “liberal” immigration policies that let your parents in. So let me put this in terms of your situation: 1) while 1st gen immigrants may hold different values, their kids turn out mostly to hold Americanized values and 2) the fact that they don’t fit in culturally is good, we want people with different perspectives.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > Immigration restriction while seemingly ignoring the fact that your very existence as a US citizen is a consequence of the “liberal” immigration policies that let your parents in. And? A basic criterion for higher level political thinking is being able to distinguish between what benefits you personally and what’s good policy in general. > 1) while 1st gen immigrants may hold different values, their kids turn out mostly to hold Americanized values and It’s not a one way process, especially at the high rates of immigration we’re seeing now. The share of the population that’s foreign born has tripled since 1970, to almost 15%. That degree of immigration changes American culture even as American culture changes the immigrants. > 2) the fact that they don’t fit in culturally is good, we want people with different perspectives. I don’t think that applies when you’re talking about a Democratic polity. In fact I think the opposite is true. A basic precept of international law is that different groups have the right to self-determination and cultivation of their own cultures under their own governments, when possible: https://unpo.org/article/4957 https://unpo.org/article/4957. Bangladesh, where I’m from, exists because Pakistanis and Bangladeshis didn’t want to be part of the same body politic. My wife’s family hunted wild game as their primary source of protein up to her grandparents’ generation. This is totally alien to my dad, who comes from a country where there has been no “frontier” for a thousand years. They don’t see eye-to-eye on say gun control, and they don’t even really have a cultural context in common that would allow them to meaningfully debate the issues. Now, maybe other factors outweigh these disadvantages. But as far as I can tell, that cultural disconnect is a political challenge to be overcome, not something that’s good in and of itself. I mean, it’s not like we don’t have enough problems in this country with people not seeing eye-to-eye as it is.
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  I would not be too worried about possible cultural impact of accepting too many immigrants who do AI research.
- baybal2 6y ago
  That's rather unusual. "A pugnacious Bengali intellectual" would be the more usual stereotype back in the subcontinent.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    I’m familiar with the personality type but I’m thinking about something even more basic. Bangladesh is a more hierarchical society, and much more focused on academic accomplishment. By contrast in America, nobody talks about whether someone “is from a good family” and glorifies college dropouts.

luckylion 6y ago

> If the immigrants were drug dealers yes, but (1) the survey responders are researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences They aren't individually rejected though, are they? They're worried about immigration issues, but those aren't usually "immigration policies for AI researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences", but they apply to everyone.

rayiner 6y ago

“Dumb” by what metric? Even high education/income immigrants have cultural incompatibilities that may justify wanting to restrict immigration. My family is first generation immigrants from Bangladesh, and my wife’s family is descended from the pioneers that settled the west coast. We’re quite westernized, but there are profound cultural disconnects under the surface. For example, like many Asians, my dad has a very paternalistic view of government and elites. He thinks the job of leaders should be to “educate the common people” to accept what’s good for them. This drives my wife nuts when they argue politics, because she fully embraces traditional American populism (“wisdom of the ‘common man’”). Even high education/income immigrants change the culture of the country. (And “culture matters” as anyone from Silicon Valley should know.) We can argue whether these changes are good or bad. But there is more to immigration than just economic effects.

heavenlyblue 6y ago
> For example, like many Asians, my dad has a very paternalistic view of government and elites. He thinks the job of leaders should be to “educate the common people” to accept what’s good for them. This drives my wife nuts when they argue politics, because she fully embraces traditional American populism (“wisdom of the ‘common man’”). Are you trying to say the whole of America is made of your wives? You say "culture matters" but Silicon Valley would certainly not embrace the "wisdom of the common man". As a matter of fact most of the ideological stuff that comes from SV is hugely paternalistic in nature, such as the cult personalities of their CEOs. On top of that wasn't America made by immigrants so allowing them in is actually a more conservative choice than not?
- xyzzyz 6y ago
  > On top of that wasn't America made by immigrants so allowing them in is actually a more conservative choice than not? There were relatively many immigrants in America at times, and relatively few at other times. However, overall, there were too few immigrants to say that the America was “made” by them, as opposed to being made by people who were born here. At best, you could argue that it was made by people who were descendants of immigrants, but then this is true about most nations of the world, as most nations comprise of people who are descendants to immigrants.
  - pm90 6y ago
    Most nations of the old world have had people living in its constituent lands for several centuries at the least. Immigration has not meaningfully shaped them, unless we talk about specific instances of forced population movement (partition of nations, ethnic cleansing etc.). The US has for most of its history had a significant population of immigrants, rising up to 10% of the population at the turn of the 20th century. It has absolutely been made by immigrants; people who decided to move to the US in search of better opportunities.
VBprogrammer 6y ago
> We’re quite westernized, but there are profound cultural disconnects under the surface. This seems prefaced on the idea that the cultural homogeneity is a desired state. I certainly acknowledge that immigration has some potential negative effects, particularly where large groups of immigrants congregate in one area, for example the British immigrants in the Spanish Costa del Sol. Your example doesn't strike me as one which I recognise as a problem. Even if neither your dad nor your wife are willing to give an inch in accepting the other may have a point, is this not better than neither of them having been exposed to that point in the first place?
- rayiner 6y ago
  > This seems prefaced on the idea that the cultural homogeneity is a desired state. Cultural homogeneity has upsides and downsides. Some of the most successful countries in the world (Japan, the Scandinavian countries, etc., are culturally homogenous). For example, Tokyo wouldn’t work if it was culturally heterogenous. Culturally heterogenous cities all end up kind of looking like Toronto, London, New York, etc. Interesting and vibrant, but not exactly orderly and organized. > Your example doesn't strike me as one which I recognise as a problem. Even if neither your dad nor your wife are willing to give an inch in accepting the other may have a point, is this not better than neither of them having been exposed to that point in the first place? Except at the end of the day they both vote and have to live under the kinds of governments picked by the other. For example during COVID, my dad was completely unable to relate to why some people had civil liberties objections to lockdown orders. (Not just concluding, on the balance, that lockdowns outweighed the impact on civil liberties, but completely unable to understand there was even a balancing process at issue.) He welcomes the centralization of power in DC, the idea that a well-credentialed bureaucracy will tell the backwaters of the country what to do. (One of the things we forget is that elite immigrants are often elite in their home countries. My family is from the same educated, ideologically forward thinking tiny minority of people who decided it would be tenable to impose secularism in the 1972 Bangladesh constitution, on a country that’s overwhelmingly Muslim.) Of course this drives my wife nuts—her family kept moving west to get as far away from the government as physically possible. Now to some extent this parallels cultural conflicts that already exist in America. But large scale immigration certainly changes the balance. When I was growing up, Northern Virginia was what I’d call “traditional American elitist.” Where there is an elite, but being elite is considered somewhat unseemly, so even the elites pay homage to the “common man.” With the large scale Asian immigration to Northern Virginia over the last 30 years, the culture has changed quite dramatically. What used to be an “under the breath” hostility to the “rest of Virginia” has become an open one. We can debate about the merits of these views—but that’s not my point here. My point is that this cultural disconnect exists even with educated, high-income immigrants. And it’s entirely reasonable for folks who are already in the US to see that as a reason to oppose large scale immigration. Certainly, if the shoe were in the other foot, and Americans were streaming into Dhaka bringing with them their hedonistic individualism, there would be outrage among Bangladeshis.
pm90 6y ago
I’ve seen you trot out your background as some sort of evidence of requiring Immigration restriction while seemingly ignoring the fact that your very existence as a US citizen is a consequence of the “liberal” immigration policies that let your parents in. So let me put this in terms of your situation: 1) while 1st gen immigrants may hold different values, their kids turn out mostly to hold Americanized values and 2) the fact that they don’t fit in culturally is good, we want people with different perspectives.
- rayiner 6y ago
  > Immigration restriction while seemingly ignoring the fact that your very existence as a US citizen is a consequence of the “liberal” immigration policies that let your parents in. And? A basic criterion for higher level political thinking is being able to distinguish between what benefits you personally and what’s good policy in general. > 1) while 1st gen immigrants may hold different values, their kids turn out mostly to hold Americanized values and It’s not a one way process, especially at the high rates of immigration we’re seeing now. The share of the population that’s foreign born has tripled since 1970, to almost 15%. That degree of immigration changes American culture even as American culture changes the immigrants. > 2) the fact that they don’t fit in culturally is good, we want people with different perspectives. I don’t think that applies when you’re talking about a Democratic polity. In fact I think the opposite is true. A basic precept of international law is that different groups have the right to self-determination and cultivation of their own cultures under their own governments, when possible: https://unpo.org/article/4957 https://unpo.org/article/4957. Bangladesh, where I’m from, exists because Pakistanis and Bangladeshis didn’t want to be part of the same body politic. My wife’s family hunted wild game as their primary source of protein up to her grandparents’ generation. This is totally alien to my dad, who comes from a country where there has been no “frontier” for a thousand years. They don’t see eye-to-eye on say gun control, and they don’t even really have a cultural context in common that would allow them to meaningfully debate the issues. Now, maybe other factors outweigh these disadvantages. But as far as I can tell, that cultural disconnect is a political challenge to be overcome, not something that’s good in and of itself. I mean, it’s not like we don’t have enough problems in this country with people not seeing eye-to-eye as it is.
AzzieElbab 6y ago
I would not be too worried about possible cultural impact of accepting too many immigrants who do AI research.
baybal2 6y ago
That's rather unusual. "A pugnacious Bengali intellectual" would be the more usual stereotype back in the subcontinent.
- rayiner 6y ago
  I’m familiar with the personality type but I’m thinking about something even more basic. Bangladesh is a more hierarchical society, and much more focused on academic accomplishment. By contrast in America, nobody talks about whether someone “is from a good family” and glorifies college dropouts.