4 ms·

I prefer to acknowledge that tradeoffs are inherent, and that there is some cost to e.g. replacing "man" with "person", and that the benefit (inclusivity) is wo

I prefer to acknowledge that tradeoffs are inherent, and that there is some cost to e.g. replacing "man" with "person", and that the benefit (inclusivity) is worth the cost (breaking "backwards compatibility", upsetting some people) and hopefully the risk (these kinds of changes may not really grow inclusivity in a material way, and may take attention away from more substantial and radical efforts).

AndrewDucker 6y ago
Who is actively upset by this? I understand some people don't like change, but if changing "man" to "person" upsets someone then it rather feels like they don't like sharing.
- zo1 6y ago
  Probably no one really "minds" or is "upset" about this. As if they are now upset that their gender or race is now being slighted by the fact that we don't want to use male words for common-day things. What we are upset about is that this is being "forced" on people (Soon, watch. Probably already happening in schools, though). And likewise, that it's being done under the guise of some sort of greater-good when it seems rather petty and won't really change the day to day issues facing women and black people. We're also upset that this is effectively taking a step in the opposite direction to real equality. Additionally, I could care less that we stop using "man" and "white" etc. What does bother me is that there is this nagging feeling that this is being done purposefully to upset certain groups (which we can then turn around and say "look, see, they don't like their white/male power being dismantled, they are race/sex-ist and look how much we're defeating sex/race-ism!").
- username90 6y ago
  Teaching people to change their language is super expensive. Instead of just writing down the words that comes to mind, they now have to run every word in a hash table to see if it is good, and then if it comes up bad they have to invent a new term or look up what the new term ought to be. Multiply this with however many people has to learn the new terms and you understand why there is so much pushback to changing language. Changing one word is fine, but if there is no pushback people just continue asking for more and more changes as can be seen in the document we are talking about. Everyone already knows that "manmade" is an inclusive term, if women or children makes something it is still "manmade" so there is no need to update the term. If you say that wording matters, then you also should be against the term "toxic masculinity" since it is a very aggravating term, there are so many less aggravating terms that could be used for that phenomena. Edit: If you don't understand how expensive these things are try to think about why USA still uses AM/PM and the imperial measuring systems. It is trivial to switch on all new products, right? Well, of course that isn't true, changing language is as I said super expensive which is why it isn't done often.
- baxuz 6y ago
  Virtue signallers working in tech, and Twitter. There's a huge overlap there. What bothers me is how much this is an VERY regional issue, specifically, USA-based, yet it's being imported wholesale across the entire Western world, when it doesn't make any sense. It's sad seeing locals making BLM protests when we have <10 black people in the entire country, or German bloggers who suddenly find themselves questioning if noun articles are the cause of toxic patriarchy.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > What bothers me is how much this is an VERY regional issue, specifically, USA-based, yet it's being imported wholesale across the entire Western world, when it doesn't make any sense. The empire defines the rules, the provinces follow. I find it positive because it makes these relationships very obvious, nothing is hidden.

AndrewDucker 6y ago

Who is actively upset by this? I understand some people don't like change, but if changing "man" to "person" upsets someone then it rather feels like they don't like sharing.

zo1 6y ago
Probably no one really "minds" or is "upset" about this. As if they are now upset that their gender or race is now being slighted by the fact that we don't want to use male words for common-day things. What we are upset about is that this is being "forced" on people (Soon, watch. Probably already happening in schools, though). And likewise, that it's being done under the guise of some sort of greater-good when it seems rather petty and won't really change the day to day issues facing women and black people. We're also upset that this is effectively taking a step in the opposite direction to real equality. Additionally, I could care less that we stop using "man" and "white" etc. What does bother me is that there is this nagging feeling that this is being done purposefully to upset certain groups (which we can then turn around and say "look, see, they don't like their white/male power being dismantled, they are race/sex-ist and look how much we're defeating sex/race-ism!").
username90 6y ago
Teaching people to change their language is super expensive. Instead of just writing down the words that comes to mind, they now have to run every word in a hash table to see if it is good, and then if it comes up bad they have to invent a new term or look up what the new term ought to be. Multiply this with however many people has to learn the new terms and you understand why there is so much pushback to changing language. Changing one word is fine, but if there is no pushback people just continue asking for more and more changes as can be seen in the document we are talking about. Everyone already knows that "manmade" is an inclusive term, if women or children makes something it is still "manmade" so there is no need to update the term. If you say that wording matters, then you also should be against the term "toxic masculinity" since it is a very aggravating term, there are so many less aggravating terms that could be used for that phenomena. Edit: If you don't understand how expensive these things are try to think about why USA still uses AM/PM and the imperial measuring systems. It is trivial to switch on all new products, right? Well, of course that isn't true, changing language is as I said super expensive which is why it isn't done often.
baxuz 6y ago
Virtue signallers working in tech, and Twitter. There's a huge overlap there. What bothers me is how much this is an VERY regional issue, specifically, USA-based, yet it's being imported wholesale across the entire Western world, when it doesn't make any sense. It's sad seeing locals making BLM protests when we have <10 black people in the entire country, or German bloggers who suddenly find themselves questioning if noun articles are the cause of toxic patriarchy.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > What bothers me is how much this is an VERY regional issue, specifically, USA-based, yet it's being imported wholesale across the entire Western world, when it doesn't make any sense. The empire defines the rules, the provinces follow. I find it positive because it makes these relationships very obvious, nothing is hidden.