10 ms·

Immigration Policies an Ongoing Concern to AI Researchers

37 points by Hard_Space 6y ago

oriettaxx 6y ago
in the last 3 months I receive myself a lot more job offers (UK) in linkedin: is it just my perception or IT staff are a bit running away from the UK? :)
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  I guess a lot of citizens of EU countries would have moved out.
  - alibarber 6y ago
    An honest question (as a UK Citizen living in the EU) - have they? And in the context of IT-related jobs in metropolitan areas (which I assume this commentator alludes to) I don't know anyone in my network that fits the bill who has.
    - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
      I don't know either hence my "I guess" and "would" statements, like - someone says increased recruitment from area, I can think of one reason why lots of people from overseas might have decided to leave that area recently.
- cosmodisk 6y ago
  A few reasons: 1) More confidence in the economy, increased hiring. 2) A lot of Europeans moved back to Europe 3) People are more likely to jump jobs,hence more vacancies. 4) More companies restarting previously paused projects,so an increases need for various services providers/consultants. My main concern is that looking at the job ads, there are a lot of companies that expect to hire on cheap, considering the current situation.Some salaries in job ads are outright absurd. Again, not all sectors, not all skill groups.
- f6v 6y ago
  UK’s vaccine rollout is one of the most efficient in the world. It’s as if they were right about the EU holding them back. I’m not a huge fan of the state, but it’s quite impressive. That will certainly give the expats some confidence.
- jmeister 6y ago
  The UK is severely underrated by mainstream media because of Brexit and conservative govt: “I’ll say it again, whether it is AI, the Oxford/Astrazeneca vaccine, the speed of the current vaccination program, this switch to greener energy, the reemergence of Oxbridge, the new Dominic Cummings-inspired DARPA-like science funding plan, or London being the world’s best city — current Great Britain remains grossly underrated.” https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2021/02/cool-green-britannia.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2021/02/co...
  - pjc50 6y ago
    > the new Dominic Cummings-inspired DARPA-like science funding plan This is a massive cut to research. https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/03/17/the-government-must-urgently-reconsider-uk-research-and-innovation-funding-cuts/ https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/03/17/the-government-must-urg... https://sciencebusiness.net/framework-programmes/news/uk-science-rises-against-looming-multi-billion-pound-cuts-research https://sciencebusiness.net/framework-programmes/news/uk-sci... The unwillingness of anyone to take credit for decarbonising the UK is very odd.
- jariel 6y ago
  Whatever the net rate of migration in IT workers, it's not something an individual is going to notice in terms of offers.
mustafa_pasi 6y ago
The same report still says that the US and UK are the most attractive destinations. Is it not just normal that the countries which are most attractive would restrict their immigration policies?
- blackbear_ 6y ago
  If the immigrants were drug dealers yes, but (1) the survey responders are researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences (ICML and NeurIPS) and (2) there is a positive correlation between immigration and technological innovation. Based on these points, restricting immigration of AI researchers looks rather dumb.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > If the immigrants were drug dealers yes, but (1) the survey responders are researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences They aren't individually rejected though, are they? They're worried about immigration issues, but those aren't usually "immigration policies for AI researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences", but they apply to everyone.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    “Dumb” by what metric? Even high education/income immigrants have cultural incompatibilities that may justify wanting to restrict immigration. My family is first generation immigrants from Bangladesh, and my wife’s family is descended from the pioneers that settled the west coast. We’re quite westernized, but there are profound cultural disconnects under the surface. For example, like many Asians, my dad has a very paternalistic view of government and elites. He thinks the job of leaders should be to “educate the common people” to accept what’s good for them. This drives my wife nuts when they argue politics, because she fully embraces traditional American populism (“wisdom of the ‘common man’”). Even high education/income immigrants change the culture of the country. (And “culture matters” as anyone from Silicon Valley should know.) We can argue whether these changes are good or bad. But there is more to immigration than just economic effects.
    - 6y ago
playing_colours 6y ago
What makes UK more attractive option over Germany? Language, existing communities (say, for Indians)? I may have a wrong impression, but outside of London, the salaries are not that good, and living in London may kill any gaps in salaries. You can have a better living in many cities in Germany being an AI researcher or just a regular software engineer.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Language is probably a strong one, English is taught in school in Germany, but very much not spoken by a majority. That won't be much of an issue if you're working in an office in Berlin or Munich, where you'll have international colleagues, and everyone is expected to be fluent in English. But it's a very different affair when you're in a grocery store, or need to talk to some government office. I had a friend from the US who had lived in Germany for many years and still refused to go to the immigration office for visa renewals without his lawyer present because the office people refused to speak English and he was afraid that his (very good) German would fail him and he'd make a mistake. Taxes and salaries are likely another point. Germany is somewhere in the highest taxed countries in the world.
  - voqv 6y ago
    UK has 40% tax on 50k pounds and Germany has 42% tax on the equivalent 58k euros, doesn't sound like big deal unless I'm missing something here.
    - alibarber 6y ago
      What are the bands and allowances though? I moved from the UK to Finland - I was in the 40% bracket, but now I'm 'only' in the mid twenties (plus about 8% insurances / pension) - but in the UK the first 11K is 0 rated, whereas Finland gives you nothing.
    - ipsi 6y ago
      Taxes are a lot more complex in Germany - you need to in add in social security charges (e.g., health insurance, nursing contribution, pension contribution, etc, etc), and you'll generally pay more in tax in Germany than you would for an equivalent number of pounds in the UK. I know, because that's what happened to me (I received a large enough pay rise to balance it out, so net income was the same either way). The exception is once you go over £100,000 and hit the brief 62% tax bracket (remember to include NI) - then it starts to equal out again.
jhgb 6y ago
One would think that this would be a perfect case for a "global job" that doesn't depend on your location, and that immigration wouldn't be an issue at all for this.
Nesco 6y ago
This paper seems very biased on several points. An example: “ A 2010 report revealed that between 1940-2000 there was a 9-18% growth in patents per capita for every percentage point increase in foreign college graduates in the population.” Explained like this it seems there is a direct, linear, causal link between accepting more skilled immigrants and growth in patents. It is not explained how they obtained this and how confident they are in this link and the corresponding paper is behind a paywall. However: 1. The Simple heuristic of changing the order of the causation gives indeed something that seems plausible: countries or states with a more dynamic research environment will produce more patents & attract more foreign students in their colleges. 2. Using the number of patents to measure the benefits of skilled immigrations seems a bit ad-hoc. By carefully choosing the right metrics (patents issued with foreign students in college) instead of one of the considerable number of other possible choices (e.g. stock prices of tech companies with total skilled immigrants population) one can find the conclusion he wants
VincentEvans 6y ago
I’d personally prefer to see them concerned about irrational costs of higher education in US. Perhaps then US wouldn’t need to be concerned about immigration policies as much. Especially from countries where education is very affordable or free. I’d like to hope that similar access to high quality affordable or free education in US may have a positive effect on the number of AI candidates without the need for more open immigration policies. Btw in terms of immigration, I already would place US as one of the most accessible developed countries in the world. Conversation below somehow doubting this fact is easily disputed: https://citizenpath.com/countries-with-the-most-immigrants/ https://citizenpath.com/countries-with-the-most-immigrants/ US accepts more immigrants than the runners up combined.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > I’d personally prefer to see them concerned about irrational costs of higher education in US. Quite rational. For Chinese to have a kid a chance on settling in the US, their prices are a joke. For the while the investment immigration to US was working, the price was in many million dollars. $100,000 to move to US in a few years, + a degree for your kid is a much better deal.
- geodel 6y ago
  > I’d personally prefer to see them concerned about irrational costs of higher education in US. This is just based on assumption that these "researchers" are anything different from politicians. I have seen very very few university professors etc honestly talk about degrees their department is offering are just not worth the money especially for people who are taking large education loans. In his book 'On bullshit jobs' David Gerber talked about lot of bullshit jobs in universities but I think he was too kind on his teaching colleagues at universities
neartheplain 6y ago
This is a survey of researchers’ perceptions. It is not a serious look at the realities of immigration systems. Look at China’s rank in the survey, and then consider how China grants only a few hundred permanent resident cards per year: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-03-24/Is-China-moving-to-loosen-permanent-residency-criteria-for-foreigners--P6bNKEdnjO/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-03-24/Is-China-moving-to-loo... Compared to the US, which despite its bureaucratic pitfalls and inefficiencies grants over 1 million green cards annually: https://www.boundless.com/blog/biden-immigration-bill-increase-green-cards/ https://www.boundless.com/blog/biden-immigration-bill-increa...
- madengr 6y ago
  The USA will always be considered xenophobic until liberals achieve their goal of fully open boarders with zero identification required to vote.
- pm90 6y ago
  China has 3 times the population of the US and has a smaller economy than that of the US. Thus they have a oversupply of labor.
  - MikeUt 6y ago
    I'm sorry, but we are constantly told what a wonderful effect immigration has on economic growth. Sergey Brin, Elon Musk, and so many more billionaires are immigrants, and there's no lack of articles telling us so [1,2]. If we apply the same logic, China's smaller economy would need even more immigration than that of the US. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2016/10/05/a-record-number-of-the-u-s-billionaires-are-immigrants/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2016/10/05/a... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/immigrant-billionaires-united-states-elon-musk-jan-koum-2019-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/immigrant-billionaires-unite...
- baybal2 6y ago
  > Compared to the US, which despite its bureaucratic pitfalls and inefficiencies grants over 1 million green cards annually: Which mostly go to people in the very, very, very long backlog.
pm90 6y ago
Any article talking about increasing immigration will attract the ugly nativism in this forum almost immediately. Immigration has been shown to greatly benefit a developed economy like the US, and high skilled immigration even more so. The next few decades will require the US to not only maintain its edge but stay several steps ahead of China in its capacity to innovate. We desperately need to allow for more people to enter this country. I will not provide any citations. Please look up established research by social and political scientists.

37 points by Hard_Space 6y ago

in the last 3 months I receive myself a lot more job offers (UK) in linkedin: is it just my perception or IT staff are a bit running away from the UK? :)

bryanrasmussen 6y ago
I guess a lot of citizens of EU countries would have moved out.
- alibarber 6y ago
  An honest question (as a UK Citizen living in the EU) - have they? And in the context of IT-related jobs in metropolitan areas (which I assume this commentator alludes to) I don't know anyone in my network that fits the bill who has.
  - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
    I don't know either hence my "I guess" and "would" statements, like - someone says increased recruitment from area, I can think of one reason why lots of people from overseas might have decided to leave that area recently.
cosmodisk 6y ago
A few reasons: 1) More confidence in the economy, increased hiring. 2) A lot of Europeans moved back to Europe 3) People are more likely to jump jobs,hence more vacancies. 4) More companies restarting previously paused projects,so an increases need for various services providers/consultants. My main concern is that looking at the job ads, there are a lot of companies that expect to hire on cheap, considering the current situation.Some salaries in job ads are outright absurd. Again, not all sectors, not all skill groups.
f6v 6y ago
UK’s vaccine rollout is one of the most efficient in the world. It’s as if they were right about the EU holding them back. I’m not a huge fan of the state, but it’s quite impressive. That will certainly give the expats some confidence.
jmeister 6y ago
The UK is severely underrated by mainstream media because of Brexit and conservative govt: “I’ll say it again, whether it is AI, the Oxford/Astrazeneca vaccine, the speed of the current vaccination program, this switch to greener energy, the reemergence of Oxbridge, the new Dominic Cummings-inspired DARPA-like science funding plan, or London being the world’s best city — current Great Britain remains grossly underrated.” https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2021/02/cool-green-britannia.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2021/02/co...
- pjc50 6y ago
  > the new Dominic Cummings-inspired DARPA-like science funding plan This is a massive cut to research. https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/03/17/the-government-must-urgently-reconsider-uk-research-and-innovation-funding-cuts/ https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/03/17/the-government-must-urg... https://sciencebusiness.net/framework-programmes/news/uk-science-rises-against-looming-multi-billion-pound-cuts-research https://sciencebusiness.net/framework-programmes/news/uk-sci... The unwillingness of anyone to take credit for decarbonising the UK is very odd.
jariel 6y ago
Whatever the net rate of migration in IT workers, it's not something an individual is going to notice in terms of offers.

mustafa_pasi 6y ago

The same report still says that the US and UK are the most attractive destinations. Is it not just normal that the countries which are most attractive would restrict their immigration policies?

blackbear_ 6y ago
If the immigrants were drug dealers yes, but (1) the survey responders are researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences (ICML and NeurIPS) and (2) there is a positive correlation between immigration and technological innovation. Based on these points, restricting immigration of AI researchers looks rather dumb.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > If the immigrants were drug dealers yes, but (1) the survey responders are researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences They aren't individually rejected though, are they? They're worried about immigration issues, but those aren't usually "immigration policies for AI researchers who published in prestigious AI conferences", but they apply to everyone.
- rayiner 6y ago
  “Dumb” by what metric? Even high education/income immigrants have cultural incompatibilities that may justify wanting to restrict immigration. My family is first generation immigrants from Bangladesh, and my wife’s family is descended from the pioneers that settled the west coast. We’re quite westernized, but there are profound cultural disconnects under the surface. For example, like many Asians, my dad has a very paternalistic view of government and elites. He thinks the job of leaders should be to “educate the common people” to accept what’s good for them. This drives my wife nuts when they argue politics, because she fully embraces traditional American populism (“wisdom of the ‘common man’”). Even high education/income immigrants change the culture of the country. (And “culture matters” as anyone from Silicon Valley should know.) We can argue whether these changes are good or bad. But there is more to immigration than just economic effects.
  - 6y ago

playing_colours 6y ago

What makes UK more attractive option over Germany? Language, existing communities (say, for Indians)? I may have a wrong impression, but outside of London, the salaries are not that good, and living in London may kill any gaps in salaries. You can have a better living in many cities in Germany being an AI researcher or just a regular software engineer.

luckylion 6y ago
Language is probably a strong one, English is taught in school in Germany, but very much not spoken by a majority. That won't be much of an issue if you're working in an office in Berlin or Munich, where you'll have international colleagues, and everyone is expected to be fluent in English. But it's a very different affair when you're in a grocery store, or need to talk to some government office. I had a friend from the US who had lived in Germany for many years and still refused to go to the immigration office for visa renewals without his lawyer present because the office people refused to speak English and he was afraid that his (very good) German would fail him and he'd make a mistake. Taxes and salaries are likely another point. Germany is somewhere in the highest taxed countries in the world.
- voqv 6y ago
  UK has 40% tax on 50k pounds and Germany has 42% tax on the equivalent 58k euros, doesn't sound like big deal unless I'm missing something here.
  - alibarber 6y ago
    What are the bands and allowances though? I moved from the UK to Finland - I was in the 40% bracket, but now I'm 'only' in the mid twenties (plus about 8% insurances / pension) - but in the UK the first 11K is 0 rated, whereas Finland gives you nothing.
  - ipsi 6y ago
    Taxes are a lot more complex in Germany - you need to in add in social security charges (e.g., health insurance, nursing contribution, pension contribution, etc, etc), and you'll generally pay more in tax in Germany than you would for an equivalent number of pounds in the UK. I know, because that's what happened to me (I received a large enough pay rise to balance it out, so net income was the same either way). The exception is once you go over £100,000 and hit the brief 62% tax bracket (remember to include NI) - then it starts to equal out again.

jhgb 6y ago

One would think that this would be a perfect case for a "global job" that doesn't depend on your location, and that immigration wouldn't be an issue at all for this.

Nesco 6y ago

This paper seems very biased on several points. An example: “ A 2010 report revealed that between 1940-2000 there was a 9-18% growth in patents per capita for every percentage point increase in foreign college graduates in the population.” Explained like this it seems there is a direct, linear, causal link between accepting more skilled immigrants and growth in patents. It is not explained how they obtained this and how confident they are in this link and the corresponding paper is behind a paywall. However: 1. The Simple heuristic of changing the order of the causation gives indeed something that seems plausible: countries or states with a more dynamic research environment will produce more patents & attract more foreign students in their colleges. 2. Using the number of patents to measure the benefits of skilled immigrations seems a bit ad-hoc. By carefully choosing the right metrics (patents issued with foreign students in college) instead of one of the considerable number of other possible choices (e.g. stock prices of tech companies with total skilled immigrants population) one can find the conclusion he wants

VincentEvans 6y ago

I’d personally prefer to see them concerned about irrational costs of higher education in US. Perhaps then US wouldn’t need to be concerned about immigration policies as much. Especially from countries where education is very affordable or free. I’d like to hope that similar access to high quality affordable or free education in US may have a positive effect on the number of AI candidates without the need for more open immigration policies. Btw in terms of immigration, I already would place US as one of the most accessible developed countries in the world. Conversation below somehow doubting this fact is easily disputed: https://citizenpath.com/countries-with-the-most-immigrants/ https://citizenpath.com/countries-with-the-most-immigrants/ US accepts more immigrants than the runners up combined.

baybal2 6y ago
> I’d personally prefer to see them concerned about irrational costs of higher education in US. Quite rational. For Chinese to have a kid a chance on settling in the US, their prices are a joke. For the while the investment immigration to US was working, the price was in many million dollars. $100,000 to move to US in a few years, + a degree for your kid is a much better deal.
geodel 6y ago
> I’d personally prefer to see them concerned about irrational costs of higher education in US. This is just based on assumption that these "researchers" are anything different from politicians. I have seen very very few university professors etc honestly talk about degrees their department is offering are just not worth the money especially for people who are taking large education loans. In his book 'On bullshit jobs' David Gerber talked about lot of bullshit jobs in universities but I think he was too kind on his teaching colleagues at universities

neartheplain 6y ago

This is a survey of researchers’ perceptions. It is not a serious look at the realities of immigration systems. Look at China’s rank in the survey, and then consider how China grants only a few hundred permanent resident cards per year: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-03-24/Is-China-moving-to-loosen-permanent-residency-criteria-for-foreigners--P6bNKEdnjO/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-03-24/Is-China-moving-to-loo... Compared to the US, which despite its bureaucratic pitfalls and inefficiencies grants over 1 million green cards annually: https://www.boundless.com/blog/biden-immigration-bill-increase-green-cards/ https://www.boundless.com/blog/biden-immigration-bill-increa...

madengr 6y ago
The USA will always be considered xenophobic until liberals achieve their goal of fully open boarders with zero identification required to vote.
pm90 6y ago
China has 3 times the population of the US and has a smaller economy than that of the US. Thus they have a oversupply of labor.
- MikeUt 6y ago
  I'm sorry, but we are constantly told what a wonderful effect immigration has on economic growth. Sergey Brin, Elon Musk, and so many more billionaires are immigrants, and there's no lack of articles telling us so [1,2]. If we apply the same logic, China's smaller economy would need even more immigration than that of the US. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2016/10/05/a-record-number-of-the-u-s-billionaires-are-immigrants/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2016/10/05/a... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/immigrant-billionaires-united-states-elon-musk-jan-koum-2019-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/immigrant-billionaires-unite...
baybal2 6y ago
> Compared to the US, which despite its bureaucratic pitfalls and inefficiencies grants over 1 million green cards annually: Which mostly go to people in the very, very, very long backlog.

pm90 6y ago

Any article talking about increasing immigration will attract the ugly nativism in this forum almost immediately. Immigration has been shown to greatly benefit a developed economy like the US, and high skilled immigration even more so. The next few decades will require the US to not only maintain its edge but stay several steps ahead of China in its capacity to innovate. We desperately need to allow for more people to enter this country. I will not provide any citations. Please look up established research by social and political scientists.