4 ms·

Things like this happen often and every time it does the media takes the position that they should be protected and held in a special position because of their

by dpeck 5y ago

Things like this happen often and every time it does the media takes the position that they should be protected and held in a special position because of their employer. I wish we would collectively agree that press is a thing people do, not a certain “class” of people. All people should be able to observe and report on (to the extent they wish or do not wish to) actions of the state without being interfered with.

edoceo 5y ago
here's why credentialed press are a bit different: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate
glenda 5y ago
The fact that the police are often the ones issuing the press passes seems like a serious conflict of interest: why would they give passes out to news outlets that are critical of their departments? They have almost nothing to gain from doing so.
- hulitu 5y ago
  Because that's how propaganda works.
vineyardmike 5y ago
I have never heard someone propose this but I think I agree! Sharing and reporting and documenting news worthy events should be protected.
clcaev 5y ago
Agency isn't such a bright line? What about the professional journalist who stays past the curfew announced 10 minutes earlier, remains in the middle of a protest to live interview the event, and then gets caught in the police corral? Once the police collapse a large group of people into a very small area (say, with gas and shields), is there anyway that this journalist is not "involved"? Or, should this journalist, to remain an observer and not become a participant, immediately leave when the state commands them to do so... perhaps going to an authorized "observation area"? Civil disobedience has proven critical for societal progress. Why shouldn't those who are career professionals at documenting these events be given deference, acknowledging their service to the public interest?
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  Civil disobedience means breaking the law for a good reason and taking the punishment when it comes. The modern method of suppressing it is to impose a penalty of twenty years in prison and three generations of bankruptcy for anyone caught ruffling the wrong feathers, when the offense in question would otherwise justify a night in jail or a modest fine. That's a problem we need to solve for everybody and not just state-sanctioned journalists.
- robin21 5y ago
  They do. > Law enforcement quickly identified media and escorted them to a line where they were asked for credentials and identification. Law enforcement took pictures of journalists' credentials and IDs as well as photos of the journalists’ faces.
Rebelgecko 5y ago
I think if "everyone" is press, they'll just ruin it for actual press (kinda like emotional support dogs). Don't want to do a mandatory evacuation when there's a wildfire near your house? Just say you're press and exempt from the evacuation order.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  > Don't want to do a mandatory evacuation when there's a wildfire near your house? Just say you're press and exempt from the evacuation order. So let them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The government's job is to make people aware of the risk, not to stand between worthy recipients and their Darwin award.
  - Rebelgecko 5y ago
    For better or for worse, the people who fight fires often interfere with natural selection. Even when it means risking their own lives.
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      So do journalists. If you want a compelling picture of the fire, or the ability to document what it was like, you kind of have to be in the general vicinity of the fire. And most people aren't suicidal, so most of the people who go there and take that risk are going to be doing it for a reason. We can suffer a few people lying about which reason it was when there aren't all that many of them and they still fundamentally had one.
- midasuni 5y ago
  If you’re part of a press organisation you’ll have things like risk assessments and training to mitigate those risks, fall back plans, people who know where you are and are responsible for your safety, people who liase with emergency services, etc If you can prove you belong to such an organisation that’s great, you’re press. In the U.K. press have a card to prove this, issued on behalf of the police. It doesn’t give you any rights by law, but if the police started locking down the press like they do in countries without guarantees on the freedom of the press - China, Myanmar, USA, etc, then it becomes a political matter.
robin21 5y ago
What’s your solution to people claiming they are press to escape detention after unlawful assembly? Someone could be smashing windows one moment and then claiming they are press the next.
- dpeck 5y ago
  If someone is smashing a window, arrest them for smashing a window. Simple.
  - robin21 5y ago
    - someone in a crowd smashing windows (police can't identify who) - encircle the crowd and ask who is press - person who was smashing windows (unbeknownst to the police) claims they are press - person is escorted out - person goes smashing windows somewhere else
    - vidarh 5y ago
      If police can't identify who, they have no good justification for detaining anyone, much less everyone.
      - robin21 5y ago
        If the assembly is deemed unlawful because of threat of violence then they ask people to leave and if people refuse to disperse they can arrest them. What would you change about this process?
        vidarh 5y ago
        If the purpose of to get people to leave, then kettling them achieves the opposite. Having seen kettling used, I've yet to see an example where it was not abused as an authoritan means of punishing people. So I don't buy the premise in the first place. In practice it's an authoritarian, abusive method. If you have a legitimate reason to disperse people because elements are threatening violence, then disperse them - don't lock the those who are peaceful in with the violent elements.

by dpeck 5y ago

edoceo 5y ago

here's why credentialed press are a bit different: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate

glenda 5y ago

The fact that the police are often the ones issuing the press passes seems like a serious conflict of interest: why would they give passes out to news outlets that are critical of their departments? They have almost nothing to gain from doing so.

hulitu 5y ago
Because that's how propaganda works.

vineyardmike 5y ago

I have never heard someone propose this but I think I agree! Sharing and reporting and documenting news worthy events should be protected.

clcaev 5y ago

Agency isn't such a bright line? What about the professional journalist who stays past the curfew announced 10 minutes earlier, remains in the middle of a protest to live interview the event, and then gets caught in the police corral? Once the police collapse a large group of people into a very small area (say, with gas and shields), is there anyway that this journalist is not "involved"? Or, should this journalist, to remain an observer and not become a participant, immediately leave when the state commands them to do so... perhaps going to an authorized "observation area"? Civil disobedience has proven critical for societal progress. Why shouldn't those who are career professionals at documenting these events be given deference, acknowledging their service to the public interest?

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
Civil disobedience means breaking the law for a good reason and taking the punishment when it comes. The modern method of suppressing it is to impose a penalty of twenty years in prison and three generations of bankruptcy for anyone caught ruffling the wrong feathers, when the offense in question would otherwise justify a night in jail or a modest fine. That's a problem we need to solve for everybody and not just state-sanctioned journalists.
robin21 5y ago
They do. > Law enforcement quickly identified media and escorted them to a line where they were asked for credentials and identification. Law enforcement took pictures of journalists' credentials and IDs as well as photos of the journalists’ faces.

Rebelgecko 5y ago

I think if "everyone" is press, they'll just ruin it for actual press (kinda like emotional support dogs). Don't want to do a mandatory evacuation when there's a wildfire near your house? Just say you're press and exempt from the evacuation order.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
> Don't want to do a mandatory evacuation when there's a wildfire near your house? Just say you're press and exempt from the evacuation order. So let them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The government's job is to make people aware of the risk, not to stand between worthy recipients and their Darwin award.
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  For better or for worse, the people who fight fires often interfere with natural selection. Even when it means risking their own lives.
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    So do journalists. If you want a compelling picture of the fire, or the ability to document what it was like, you kind of have to be in the general vicinity of the fire. And most people aren't suicidal, so most of the people who go there and take that risk are going to be doing it for a reason. We can suffer a few people lying about which reason it was when there aren't all that many of them and they still fundamentally had one.
midasuni 5y ago
If you’re part of a press organisation you’ll have things like risk assessments and training to mitigate those risks, fall back plans, people who know where you are and are responsible for your safety, people who liase with emergency services, etc If you can prove you belong to such an organisation that’s great, you’re press. In the U.K. press have a card to prove this, issued on behalf of the police. It doesn’t give you any rights by law, but if the police started locking down the press like they do in countries without guarantees on the freedom of the press - China, Myanmar, USA, etc, then it becomes a political matter.

robin21 5y ago

What’s your solution to people claiming they are press to escape detention after unlawful assembly? Someone could be smashing windows one moment and then claiming they are press the next.

dpeck 5y ago
If someone is smashing a window, arrest them for smashing a window. Simple.
- robin21 5y ago
  - someone in a crowd smashing windows (police can't identify who) - encircle the crowd and ask who is press - person who was smashing windows (unbeknownst to the police) claims they are press - person is escorted out - person goes smashing windows somewhere else
  - vidarh 5y ago
    If police can't identify who, they have no good justification for detaining anyone, much less everyone.
    - robin21 5y ago
      If the assembly is deemed unlawful because of threat of violence then they ask people to leave and if people refuse to disperse they can arrest them. What would you change about this process?
      - vidarh 5y ago
        If the purpose of to get people to leave, then kettling them achieves the opposite. Having seen kettling used, I've yet to see an example where it was not abused as an authoritan means of punishing people. So I don't buy the premise in the first place. In practice it's an authoritarian, abusive method. If you have a legitimate reason to disperse people because elements are threatening violence, then disperse them - don't lock the those who are peaceful in with the violent elements.