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May I learn the reason of the down-vote? I am answering to the issue of the fairness of citizenship-by-birth raised in the parent. I draw a distinction between

May I learn the reason of the down-vote? I am answering to the issue of the fairness of citizenship-by-birth raised in the parent. I draw a distinction between entrenched inequality in world order and the more amenable inequalities.

trustfundbaby 15y ago
I didn't downvote you but I bet its for this "Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes" The guy didn't choose to be put in that situation, that decision was made for him. I think that's deserving of some empathy ... but that's just me.
dennisgorelik 15y ago
You are NOT answering the issue of fairness of citizenship-by-birth. You are just claiming that it's ok to have discrimination by contry of birth. Well, unfair discrimination is NOT OK. That's why you are getting downvoted. I personally did not downvote you. Even though I strongly disagree - at least you are trying to understand.
- freshfunk 15y ago
  You're framing the argument in a way that makes your position stronger and his weaker. But, in your framing, I think you miss some basic points. For me, it comes down to what he said here: >Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. The thing is that everyone else who is in the line is also hoping for a better life. So what justifies someone cutting? In this specific case, he had no choice in the matter (put on a plane as a kid) so I think he should be allowed to stay. But every other adult is, in my opinion, cutting in line.
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    Instead of comparing illegal immigrants against legal immigrants, focus on comparing illegal immigrants against citizens who got their privileges by birth. Share with us why immigrants are discriminated against and if this discrimination is fair.
    - dennisgorelik 15y ago
      America established immigration system in order to make it NOT fair [for immigrants]. Prior to introducing that immigration system there was no legal discrimination by country of origin. Whether there should be no concept of citizenry is a different topic outside of scope of this discussion.
      - freshfunk 15y ago
        How is it not fair? Because you say so? Because you disagree with the system? Is it more fair to have a free for all where people sneak in? It's convenient to say something is not fair as justification to break all the rules.
        dennisgorelik 15y ago
        By default discrimination is not fair. Sometimes discrimination is justified (e.g. thieves are sent to prison because they harm society). But what is the justification for discriminating immigrants?
        freshfunk 15y ago
        While you understand the definition of discrimination, you fail to understand the concept and it's legal use. Discrimination, in the legal sense, says that there should be no prejudice against people by race, gender, sexual orientation, disability and other protected groups. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class But legal status is _NOT_ a protected group. Here's another way to look at it: Criminals lose rights. They lose the right to roam freely in public among many other freedoms. Some of them lose the right to vote. By your definition, we discriminate against criminals since we treat them differently than we do law-abiding citizens. Do you disagree with the disparity in this treatment? Many people see illegal immigrants as breaking the law. Ergo the use of the word "illegal." Many people see them as criminals. Ergo, differential treatment (or discrimination) is justified. Even outside of these concepts, discrimination happens all the time. When people apply for a job, the smarter, more qualified candidate is discriminated against lesser candidates. Is this not fair? When the NFL drafts certain players over others, that's discrimination. Is this not fair? Anytime a person is chosen over another, you have discrimination. Your assertion that it is inherently unfair is wrong.

trustfundbaby 15y ago

I didn't downvote you but I bet its for this "Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes" The guy didn't choose to be put in that situation, that decision was made for him. I think that's deserving of some empathy ... but that's just me.

dennisgorelik 15y ago

You are NOT answering the issue of fairness of citizenship-by-birth. You are just claiming that it's ok to have discrimination by contry of birth. Well, unfair discrimination is NOT OK. That's why you are getting downvoted. I personally did not downvote you. Even though I strongly disagree - at least you are trying to understand.

freshfunk 15y ago
You're framing the argument in a way that makes your position stronger and his weaker. But, in your framing, I think you miss some basic points. For me, it comes down to what he said here: >Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. The thing is that everyone else who is in the line is also hoping for a better life. So what justifies someone cutting? In this specific case, he had no choice in the matter (put on a plane as a kid) so I think he should be allowed to stay. But every other adult is, in my opinion, cutting in line.
- dennisgorelik 15y ago
  Instead of comparing illegal immigrants against legal immigrants, focus on comparing illegal immigrants against citizens who got their privileges by birth. Share with us why immigrants are discriminated against and if this discrimination is fair.
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    America established immigration system in order to make it NOT fair [for immigrants]. Prior to introducing that immigration system there was no legal discrimination by country of origin. Whether there should be no concept of citizenry is a different topic outside of scope of this discussion.
    - freshfunk 15y ago
      How is it not fair? Because you say so? Because you disagree with the system? Is it more fair to have a free for all where people sneak in? It's convenient to say something is not fair as justification to break all the rules.
      - dennisgorelik 15y ago
        By default discrimination is not fair. Sometimes discrimination is justified (e.g. thieves are sent to prison because they harm society). But what is the justification for discriminating immigrants?
        freshfunk 15y ago
        While you understand the definition of discrimination, you fail to understand the concept and it's legal use. Discrimination, in the legal sense, says that there should be no prejudice against people by race, gender, sexual orientation, disability and other protected groups. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class But legal status is _NOT_ a protected group. Here's another way to look at it: Criminals lose rights. They lose the right to roam freely in public among many other freedoms. Some of them lose the right to vote. By your definition, we discriminate against criminals since we treat them differently than we do law-abiding citizens. Do you disagree with the disparity in this treatment? Many people see illegal immigrants as breaking the law. Ergo the use of the word "illegal." Many people see them as criminals. Ergo, differential treatment (or discrimination) is justified. Even outside of these concepts, discrimination happens all the time. When people apply for a job, the smarter, more qualified candidate is discriminated against lesser candidates. Is this not fair? When the NFL drafts certain players over others, that's discrimination. Is this not fair? Anytime a person is chosen over another, you have discrimination. Your assertion that it is inherently unfair is wrong.