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I agree that there is a lot of spin on these stories: efforts to paint bad and sloppy network security decisions as evidence of actual malice. I am sympathetic

I agree that there is a lot of spin on these stories: efforts to paint bad and sloppy network security decisions as evidence of actual malice. I am sympathetic to the national security agencies who are likely driving this reporting, though. Giving untrusted foreign companies access to your communications infrastructure is generally a bad idea, and the evidence (from Western countries’ own actions) is that this kind of access will eventually be abused. But the problem is that there appears to be an effort to paint these security screwups as something more concretely malicious than they are, in order to sway public opinion. From my perspective it does not make a lot of sense for Huawei or China to engage in overt spying at this stage of the game, even if (assuming the worst intentions) that is something they plan to do. Right now all of the incentives for that company are to gain the trust of customers during these early stages when everyone is looking for a reason to throw up protectionist barriers. A decade from now when Huawei systems are ubiquitous and the competition has largely been put out of business, then maybe the situation will be different. But why kill the golden goose by doing something stupid now? That doesn’t mean there wasn’t bad behavior. Maybe people are behaving irrationally. But I tend to see sloppiness behind these stories rather than actual malice.

imiric 6y ago
> Right now all of the incentives for that company are to gain the trust of customers during these early stages when everyone is looking for a reason to throw up protectionist barriers. What makes you think these are "early stages"? AFAIK many telcos already use Huawei 4G equipment, though I can't find actual numbers for that. I'd say Huawei/China is already well positioned to abuse any backdoor access they have. The move to 5G could only expand this. KPN is obviously in the wrong here since they can't prove whether there was unauthorized access or not, and speculation articles like this don't help. In any case, it doesn't seem like a good idea to give untethered access to a company accused of IP theft time and time again[1]. Whether all those are PR smear campaigns or there's a real cause for concern is difficult to judge as an outsider, but given China's track record, I'm inclined to believe there's some truth in them. [1]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/05/25/huawei-accused-of-theft-and-dubious-ethics-why-it-should-come-as-no-surprise/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/05/25/huawei-ac...
- emodendroket 6y ago
  Part of what made the US hit the panic button was that Huawei was poised to be the premier maker of 5G equipment all over the world.
- matthewdgreen 6y ago
  >What makes you think these are "early stages"? AFAIK many telcos already use Huawei 4G equipment, though I can't find actual numbers for that. I'd say Huawei/China is already well positioned to abuse any backdoor access they have. The move to 5G could only expand this. We're at the peak of a massive international debate regarding the role of Huawei in Western communications networks. This is a debate that has already led to bans and restrictions on the deployment of Huawei equipment in 5G networks [0-3]. 5G buildouts are happening right now, and hence the political purchasing decisions (with a multi-decade impact) are happening now. I suspect that's why we're seeing things like TFA. It seems to me that this would be the worst possible time for Huawei to get caught doing something unambiguously malicious. Right now Western networks could remove Huawei if they wanted to, or if politicians ban it. Ten years from now -- assuming Huawei "wins" in most Western nations -- it will be vastly more difficult to replace that equipment. If we imagine a 2035 where Huawei has dominated the US/European 5G market, I suspect that their European competitors will also be much weaker (or will have abandoned the field entirely), meaning that there really isn't much of an alternative. So TL;DR I can't say that there is a good time to get caught spying, but there definitely is a bad time: and it's right now. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-47041341 https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-47041341 [1] https://www.telecompaper.com/news/dutch-mps-call-for-more-clarity-on-huawei-role-in-5g-networks--1325742 https://www.telecompaper.com/news/dutch-mps-call-for-more-cl... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-huawei-5g-security-exclusive/exclusive-french-limits-on-huawei-5g-equipment-amount-to-de-facto-ban-by-2028-idUSKCN24N26R https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-huawei-5g-security... [3-N] Just search on "<European country> 5g Huawei debate"

imiric 6y ago

> Right now all of the incentives for that company are to gain the trust of customers during these early stages when everyone is looking for a reason to throw up protectionist barriers. What makes you think these are "early stages"? AFAIK many telcos already use Huawei 4G equipment, though I can't find actual numbers for that. I'd say Huawei/China is already well positioned to abuse any backdoor access they have. The move to 5G could only expand this. KPN is obviously in the wrong here since they can't prove whether there was unauthorized access or not, and speculation articles like this don't help. In any case, it doesn't seem like a good idea to give untethered access to a company accused of IP theft time and time again[1]. Whether all those are PR smear campaigns or there's a real cause for concern is difficult to judge as an outsider, but given China's track record, I'm inclined to believe there's some truth in them. [1]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/05/25/huawei-accused-of-theft-and-dubious-ethics-why-it-should-come-as-no-surprise/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/05/25/huawei-ac...

emodendroket 6y ago
Part of what made the US hit the panic button was that Huawei was poised to be the premier maker of 5G equipment all over the world.
matthewdgreen 6y ago
>What makes you think these are "early stages"? AFAIK many telcos already use Huawei 4G equipment, though I can't find actual numbers for that. I'd say Huawei/China is already well positioned to abuse any backdoor access they have. The move to 5G could only expand this. We're at the peak of a massive international debate regarding the role of Huawei in Western communications networks. This is a debate that has already led to bans and restrictions on the deployment of Huawei equipment in 5G networks [0-3]. 5G buildouts are happening right now, and hence the political purchasing decisions (with a multi-decade impact) are happening now. I suspect that's why we're seeing things like TFA. It seems to me that this would be the worst possible time for Huawei to get caught doing something unambiguously malicious. Right now Western networks could remove Huawei if they wanted to, or if politicians ban it. Ten years from now -- assuming Huawei "wins" in most Western nations -- it will be vastly more difficult to replace that equipment. If we imagine a 2035 where Huawei has dominated the US/European 5G market, I suspect that their European competitors will also be much weaker (or will have abandoned the field entirely), meaning that there really isn't much of an alternative. So TL;DR I can't say that there is a good time to get caught spying, but there definitely is a bad time: and it's right now. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-47041341 https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-47041341 [1] https://www.telecompaper.com/news/dutch-mps-call-for-more-clarity-on-huawei-role-in-5g-networks--1325742 https://www.telecompaper.com/news/dutch-mps-call-for-more-cl... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-huawei-5g-security-exclusive/exclusive-french-limits-on-huawei-5g-equipment-amount-to-de-facto-ban-by-2028-idUSKCN24N26R https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-huawei-5g-security... [3-N] Just search on "<European country> 5g Huawei debate"