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American, here. Given that there is no hard proof that Huawei actually spies on their customers and that Huawei critics use the same talking points in the media

American, here. Given that there is no hard proof that Huawei actually spies on their customers and that Huawei critics use the same talking points in the media to criticize Huawei and China, I am starting believe that this is not about China as a threat. That they could be a threat is not the same as the being a threat. Rather, Western leaders no longer have the willingness or belief that we can compete in tech with China (on the contrary, we can and should), so they've given up and threw a tantrum, screaming 'no fair no fair, they steal our IP', which is predictable, given that Western corporate leaders have outsourced all manufacturing to China...dumb. There are real issues to criticize with China, and Huawei is not the worst one.

someonehere 6y ago
Do you even know how businesses are supposed to operate in China if they’re from the outside? My understanding from a security friend is there are all these hurdles and the Chinese government wants access to networks and source code for anything that’s operating within the country. Also, there have been plenty of stories on HN where American businesses are ripped off by China knockoffs and there’s no way to really sue them or stop them in court. China has its claws in everything. Everything that’s based out of China should be considered an entity working for the government. Even Huawei
- ethbr0 6y ago
  You also described America, circa-1800s.
  - tpmx 6y ago
    We're living now, not in the 1800s. That may be historically interesting, but not that much interesting beyond that. It's not about who's "good" and who's "evil", now or then.
    - hda2 6y ago
      I think GP's implied point about copying ideas still stands. Like the US in the 1800s, they're not just making clones. They're making better ones. They're innovating. Taking good ideas and improving them is - and will always be - the fundamental corner stone of human development. That's why "ripping off" more advanced competitors worked out well for the US when they did it, it worked out well for Japan when they did it, it's working out well for China now that they're doing it, and it will work out well for whoever decides to work hard next. Do you know what isn't fundamental to human development? Made-up concepts like intellectual "property" that only serve the stagnant that aim to rent-seek (and not innovate). These concepts are what lulled the US into a false sense of security and allowed China to excel. The reality of the matter is that IP laws are nonsense. They only serve to hold back those it binds. Instead of being upset when other people don't play by your made-up rules, you should work harder and become competitive again. Disclosure: I have no love for China. It is a horrible country with disgustingly abhorrent views. That said, I don't think we should put our collective heads in the sand and avoid addressing the giant elephant thrashing in our room.
      - ethbr0 6y ago
        This is one of the best comments I think I've ever read on HN. Concise, summarizing a lot of things, and saying it well (much better than I could!). Thanks!
- comodore_ 6y ago
  Since these companies operate only with the blessing of the CCP and are under its control, they all should be considered foreign agents when conducting business outside of china.
- justicezyx 6y ago
  > My understanding from a security friend is there are all these hurdles and the Chinese government wants access to networks and source code for anything that’s operating within the country. The famous “friend” who can corroborate any statement without being humiliated after being harshly refuted... If you think CCP is so rich that they can hire enough people to make sense of the code of all businesses in China, then you might as well outsource all your IT development to CCP, because AFAIK, CCP government employee and contractors are dirt cheap...
nafizh 6y ago
This kind of ignorance about the CCP machine and its surreptitious control over any and every company from China has led to the current situation where China is committing a genocide out in front of the world without any consequence. For starter, I would suggest reading the book 'The Party'.
m00x 6y ago
Because you hire someone, it gives them the right to steal your IP? What?
retox 6y ago
Isn't the problem that if you are competitive with China they will steal the designs anyway, and potentially use any saved research capital to make improvements? You'll always be at a disadvantage if you're you're paying for your own competitors R&D. I do agree that manufacturing should come back on-shore to close that gap at least.
themodelplumber 6y ago
I agree; at the very least it'd be nice to see less fear-mongering. Especially with modern, acculturated tech, the democratic world ought to be doing acrobatic flips and twists off each and every "where'd Jack Ma go" springboard news event that comes out of modern China. Those are leverage points, they are the dragon's missing armor plates. Tech comparison alone though...if you make it out to be a logistics-only game, as many in government do, then I can see why things would get depressing fast. Tech & culture integration is a huge accomplishment of the modern world and we ought to leverage it, even in the service of shoring up or solving logistics issues.
kube-system 6y ago
I agree that Huawei is not the worst issue to criticize China on. But, you don't need "proof" of a spying to recognize that it's high risk to put someone in a high-trust role if they are beholden to competing interests. The competing interests themselves are enough to establish the existence of risk. You're right that many people who outsourced to China previously wrote off all these risks as unimportant and later cried foul when their IP was stolen... this discussion is 20 years too late, and people still think the evidence isn't strong enough. If you think that Chinese companies stealing your widget design is bad, wait until they put sanctions on your countries critical infrastructure's IT vendors. I'm sure Taiwan isn't waiting around for any "proof" of Chinese spying. When the proof comes it'll be too late.
- justicezyx 6y ago
  > outsourced to China previously wrote off all these risks as unimportant and later cried foul when their IP was stolen Give me one concrete example from a reputable source. I'll PayPal you $20 (gift option) look my profile to get my contact information.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    I’m not exactly sure what you’re challenging, or what is controversial about my statement. Counterfeiting and IP theft is a approaching (if not already, by some estimates) a trillion dollar industry. A lot of it is something as simply as “third shift/ghost shift” products, rejected manufacturing samples, QA rejects being sold out the back door, etc. If you want some articles about supply chain risk management in China, I’m sure I can dig some up.
    - justicezyx 6y ago
      I do not challenge. I ask for a concrete example from reputable source. If I trust online content. I might as well believe Trump is right about calling Chinese virus.
      - 6y ago
zozin 6y ago
Yes, it's all just a big conspiracy at the highest levels, lol. What really happened is that western countries and corporations didn't care _enough_ about China because China wasn't that powerful/influential. Now that China is powerful/influential, the era of just signing on the dotted line or not pushing back is over. Banning Huawei _is_ competing. See Lotte Mart's fate in China.
guram11 6y ago
> There are real issues to criticize with China, and Huawei is not the worst one you are right atm "Western Leader" only care and dare to point finger on things in their evidence and interest, when this pandemic still rampaging after a year and getting worst in some country despite the use of vaccines(made in China), Huawei is not the worst one to criticize and confront CCP with
neither_color 6y ago
>That they could be a threat is not the same as the being a threat. In realism(as in realism theory of international relations) they are the same thing. You should prevent a rival from having the capability to harm you if you can, not let them develop the capability to harm you and hope that they don't.

someonehere 6y ago

Do you even know how businesses are supposed to operate in China if they’re from the outside? My understanding from a security friend is there are all these hurdles and the Chinese government wants access to networks and source code for anything that’s operating within the country. Also, there have been plenty of stories on HN where American businesses are ripped off by China knockoffs and there’s no way to really sue them or stop them in court. China has its claws in everything. Everything that’s based out of China should be considered an entity working for the government. Even Huawei

ethbr0 6y ago
You also described America, circa-1800s.
- tpmx 6y ago
  We're living now, not in the 1800s. That may be historically interesting, but not that much interesting beyond that. It's not about who's "good" and who's "evil", now or then.
  - hda2 6y ago
    I think GP's implied point about copying ideas still stands. Like the US in the 1800s, they're not just making clones. They're making better ones. They're innovating. Taking good ideas and improving them is - and will always be - the fundamental corner stone of human development. That's why "ripping off" more advanced competitors worked out well for the US when they did it, it worked out well for Japan when they did it, it's working out well for China now that they're doing it, and it will work out well for whoever decides to work hard next. Do you know what isn't fundamental to human development? Made-up concepts like intellectual "property" that only serve the stagnant that aim to rent-seek (and not innovate). These concepts are what lulled the US into a false sense of security and allowed China to excel. The reality of the matter is that IP laws are nonsense. They only serve to hold back those it binds. Instead of being upset when other people don't play by your made-up rules, you should work harder and become competitive again. Disclosure: I have no love for China. It is a horrible country with disgustingly abhorrent views. That said, I don't think we should put our collective heads in the sand and avoid addressing the giant elephant thrashing in our room.
    - ethbr0 6y ago
      This is one of the best comments I think I've ever read on HN. Concise, summarizing a lot of things, and saying it well (much better than I could!). Thanks!
comodore_ 6y ago
Since these companies operate only with the blessing of the CCP and are under its control, they all should be considered foreign agents when conducting business outside of china.
justicezyx 6y ago
> My understanding from a security friend is there are all these hurdles and the Chinese government wants access to networks and source code for anything that’s operating within the country. The famous “friend” who can corroborate any statement without being humiliated after being harshly refuted... If you think CCP is so rich that they can hire enough people to make sense of the code of all businesses in China, then you might as well outsource all your IT development to CCP, because AFAIK, CCP government employee and contractors are dirt cheap...

nafizh 6y ago

This kind of ignorance about the CCP machine and its surreptitious control over any and every company from China has led to the current situation where China is committing a genocide out in front of the world without any consequence. For starter, I would suggest reading the book 'The Party'.

m00x 6y ago

Because you hire someone, it gives them the right to steal your IP? What?

retox 6y ago

Isn't the problem that if you are competitive with China they will steal the designs anyway, and potentially use any saved research capital to make improvements? You'll always be at a disadvantage if you're you're paying for your own competitors R&D. I do agree that manufacturing should come back on-shore to close that gap at least.

themodelplumber 6y ago

I agree; at the very least it'd be nice to see less fear-mongering. Especially with modern, acculturated tech, the democratic world ought to be doing acrobatic flips and twists off each and every "where'd Jack Ma go" springboard news event that comes out of modern China. Those are leverage points, they are the dragon's missing armor plates. Tech comparison alone though...if you make it out to be a logistics-only game, as many in government do, then I can see why things would get depressing fast. Tech & culture integration is a huge accomplishment of the modern world and we ought to leverage it, even in the service of shoring up or solving logistics issues.

kube-system 6y ago

I agree that Huawei is not the worst issue to criticize China on. But, you don't need "proof" of a spying to recognize that it's high risk to put someone in a high-trust role if they are beholden to competing interests. The competing interests themselves are enough to establish the existence of risk. You're right that many people who outsourced to China previously wrote off all these risks as unimportant and later cried foul when their IP was stolen... this discussion is 20 years too late, and people still think the evidence isn't strong enough. If you think that Chinese companies stealing your widget design is bad, wait until they put sanctions on your countries critical infrastructure's IT vendors. I'm sure Taiwan isn't waiting around for any "proof" of Chinese spying. When the proof comes it'll be too late.

justicezyx 6y ago
> outsourced to China previously wrote off all these risks as unimportant and later cried foul when their IP was stolen Give me one concrete example from a reputable source. I'll PayPal you $20 (gift option) look my profile to get my contact information.
- kube-system 6y ago
  I’m not exactly sure what you’re challenging, or what is controversial about my statement. Counterfeiting and IP theft is a approaching (if not already, by some estimates) a trillion dollar industry. A lot of it is something as simply as “third shift/ghost shift” products, rejected manufacturing samples, QA rejects being sold out the back door, etc. If you want some articles about supply chain risk management in China, I’m sure I can dig some up.
  - justicezyx 6y ago
    I do not challenge. I ask for a concrete example from reputable source. If I trust online content. I might as well believe Trump is right about calling Chinese virus.
    - 6y ago

zozin 6y ago

Yes, it's all just a big conspiracy at the highest levels, lol. What really happened is that western countries and corporations didn't care _enough_ about China because China wasn't that powerful/influential. Now that China is powerful/influential, the era of just signing on the dotted line or not pushing back is over. Banning Huawei _is_ competing. See Lotte Mart's fate in China.

guram11 6y ago

> There are real issues to criticize with China, and Huawei is not the worst one you are right atm "Western Leader" only care and dare to point finger on things in their evidence and interest, when this pandemic still rampaging after a year and getting worst in some country despite the use of vaccines(made in China), Huawei is not the worst one to criticize and confront CCP with

neither_color 6y ago

>That they could be a threat is not the same as the being a threat. In realism(as in realism theory of international relations) they are the same thing. You should prevent a rival from having the capability to harm you if you can, not let them develop the capability to harm you and hope that they don't.