5 ms·

True. But, he was not a minor or forced against his will when he decided to check the citizen box on the I-9, or when he decided to pursue a writing career in

by lupatus 15y ago

True. But, he was not a minor or forced against his will when he decided to check the citizen box on the I-9, or when he decided to pursue a writing career in New York instead of Manilla, or every time he decided as an adult to stay in the USA while knowing he was here illegally.

lutorm 15y ago
I suppose if you suddenly were to find out that you were actually illegally present in the U.S., you'd be a good, law-abiding noncitizen and cheerfully go back to the country you don't know?
- lupatus 15y ago
  Yup. :) Nations are basically large families. Imagine you spent your whole life thinking you were part of Family A. But then, you discovered you weren't biologically part of Family A or actually adopted by Family A, instead Family A kidnapped you. Would you be inclined to stay with Family A, or would you seek out Family P - your biological family? Similarly, would you want to stay with Nation A or go seek out Nation P? I would go seek out Nation P.
  - lupatus 15y ago
    For those downvoting this comment, why? Do you disagree that nations are basically large families? Am I in the wrong to want to hypothetically seek out my biological family or nation of origin? Or, do you disagree with my viewpoint and want me to shut up?
    - kelnos 15y ago
      I didn't downvote you, but yes, I do disagree that nations are large families. And I think the analogy is flawed and attempts to emotionally twist the situation in favor of your conclusion.
      - lupatus 15y ago
        Up until a few years ago I would have agreed with you. But, then I started studying genealogy and history and I had to revisit just what the definition of a nation is. Wikipedia states that a nation refers "... to a community of people who share a common territory and government; and who often share a common language, race, descent, and/or history." The USA is comprised of a community of people who, except for recent immigrants, are mostly distantly related. For example, 25% of USA citizens claim descent from the Pilgrims. Also, Obama and Cheney are eighth cousins. My personal ancestors have been here for nearly 400 years. USA citizens are distantly related. The same holds true, and probably more so, for other nations around the world. Immigration is the official process of adoption into this large family. Illegal immigrants are masquerading as family members. Yeah, the situation sucks for this guy, but he has not gone through the official adoption process either. Instead, he wants us to think that it is cool that he has been knowingly stealing opportunities from legit members of the American family, and that gall, that cheating behavior, just doesn't sit right with me. I cannot condone it.
        adolph 15y ago
        By that logic, most of people living in America are as much related to the rest of the world as one another, right? http://www.american-pictures.com/genealogy/we.are.all.cousins.htm http://www.american-pictures.com/genealogy/we.are.all.cousin...
        meric 15y ago
        He has now admitted it on a major newspaper after many years of inner conflict. What do you propose to do now?
        lupatus 15y ago
        Like I said in my original post - ship him back to the Philippines.
        kelnos 15y ago
        Instead, he wants us to think that it is cool that he has been knowingly stealing opportunities from legit members of the American family, and that gall, that cheating behavior, just doesn't sit right with me. Sorry, dude, but I just can't have a productive discussion with you. This kind of xenophobic attitude is reprehensible in my opinion, and I just don't see either of us changing each others' minds. Let's assume for a moment that he "stole" writing jobs from legal American citizens (or legal aliens). Let's also assume for the moment that the hiring processes for those jobs were concerned with finding the best candidate for the position. I don't want a "real American" to fill that position. I want the best person for the job to fill that position. If a citizen/legal alien is actually the best person for the job, that's great. But if not: I don't care who it is, where he/she comes from, or what his/her immigration status is. Maybe for a job like a newspaper/magazine writer, it isn't absolutely critical to have the best person possible in that job. But for other jobs it's certainly important, and regardless, I'm not willing to make that value judgement.
    - anigbrowl 15y ago
      Did not downvote, but absolutely disagree. Ethnic nationalism has a bad track record, to put it mildly.
      - philwelch 15y ago
        It's a not-insignificant marker of nationality for nations which have experienced diasporas. The citizenship laws of both Israel and the Republic of Ireland grant citizenship on a fairly liberal basis, based upon Jewish or Irish descent.
      - rubashov 15y ago
        > Ethnic nationalism has a bad track record Pre 1940s Europe is a transnational jumble of overlapping ethnic groups. Result: war after war after war. Post 40s and 50s after millions of people relocate to their linguistic and ethnic homelands and coalesce into new nations carved out of empires: lasting peace. Last major war was in former Yugoslavia, which failed to get with the ethnic nationalist program. Hell, even Belgium is falling apart now. You are dead wrong on this. Ethnic nationalism is the only system that works, long term.
        jbm 15y ago
        Would you say that Jews and Protestant Brits are of different ethnic nationalities? (Any answer other than "yes" is a cop-out or word-play.) Wouldn't your statement then be implying that the US would be better off without a large part of its congress, its best teachers, and scientists? In the long term - we are all heat decay. In the short term, all we need is a set of common values we agree on.
        jarek 15y ago
        You conveniently left out the late 1930s and 1940s, in which a nation-state perpetuated ethnic war and genocide before being stopped primarily by two fairly transnational states. Would you be interested in a summary of 20th century armed conflicts, classified by the type of states involved? There are a couple in Asia and Africa I'm thinking of.
      - ajays 15y ago
- fastfinner 15y ago
  If a person's answer to this question is "no, I'd stay, even after I realize that I am breaking the laws of the country", I don't know how that person can expect sympathy after being busted (or "coming out").
  - kelnos 15y ago
    I think it's totally fair to expect sympathy. I'm very sympathetic toward this guy, and as you can see from this HN thread, the majority of posters are as well.
- ajays 15y ago
  I'd dispute the "country you don't know" part. He keeps using the Filipino language. Having spent 12 years there, he isn't exactly a stranger. If, as a young 12-year old, he could adapt to the US (a country he _really_ didn't know), then why can't he, an educated and grown adult, adapt to the Philippines, a country where he grew up, whose language he speaks, and where he still has relatives (mom)?? This "country they don't know" falsehood is parroted by some people, and I find it very disingenuous. You don't have to lie to make your case. People immigrate to the US from other countries at all ages, and get along just fine. There's no reason that an American can't immigrate to his/her place of birth either. Growing up American doesn't make a person dumb, you know.
anigbrowl 15y ago
That is illegal, I agree. But while I wouldn't do that, I don't feel able to condemn him for dealing with a situation not of his own making. The government does not offer any procedure for a person in his position to regularize their legal status (eg do XYZ and pay a fine in restitution, which will allow you to apply for permanent residency on the same basis as a new visitor). Absent a way to live legally, he has little other choice. The immigration laws in this country were practically constructed to create this exact situation, and the same politicians who voted these draconian laws onto the books have persistently underfunded and frustrated the very systems designed to help enforce them, like entry-exit databases and the like.
- fastfinner 15y ago
  "Absent a way to live legally, he has little other choice." No he has a choice and he chooses to risk being busted and live in the land of opportunities. He can live legally. He can choose to go back to the native country of his parents and start a legal life there. He has graduated from a university in the US. He has done work in the US. He is much better off resume-wise than many of his peers.
  - lupatus 15y ago
    Seriously! This guy would probably kick a$$ in the Philippines.
  - anigbrowl 15y ago
    That is irrelevant to the question of his legal relationship with the US government, which is the matter at issue. Sure, he could go to the Philippines, but that's essentially wishing the problem away. There are a lot of people who are technically citizens of other places but who arrived in the US at such a young age that they have no memory of ever living abroad, and often don't even speak the language. Why should such people suddenly find themselves excluded from legal participation in the workforce when they reach adulthood? From a constitutional standpoint it's a very problematic question, because those persons are at a significant disadvantage without having broken any laws.

by lupatus 15y ago

lutorm 15y ago

I suppose if you suddenly were to find out that you were actually illegally present in the U.S., you'd be a good, law-abiding noncitizen and cheerfully go back to the country you don't know?

lupatus 15y ago
Yup. :) Nations are basically large families. Imagine you spent your whole life thinking you were part of Family A. But then, you discovered you weren't biologically part of Family A or actually adopted by Family A, instead Family A kidnapped you. Would you be inclined to stay with Family A, or would you seek out Family P - your biological family? Similarly, would you want to stay with Nation A or go seek out Nation P? I would go seek out Nation P.
- lupatus 15y ago
  For those downvoting this comment, why? Do you disagree that nations are basically large families? Am I in the wrong to want to hypothetically seek out my biological family or nation of origin? Or, do you disagree with my viewpoint and want me to shut up?
  - kelnos 15y ago
    I didn't downvote you, but yes, I do disagree that nations are large families. And I think the analogy is flawed and attempts to emotionally twist the situation in favor of your conclusion.
    - lupatus 15y ago
      Up until a few years ago I would have agreed with you. But, then I started studying genealogy and history and I had to revisit just what the definition of a nation is. Wikipedia states that a nation refers "... to a community of people who share a common territory and government; and who often share a common language, race, descent, and/or history." The USA is comprised of a community of people who, except for recent immigrants, are mostly distantly related. For example, 25% of USA citizens claim descent from the Pilgrims. Also, Obama and Cheney are eighth cousins. My personal ancestors have been here for nearly 400 years. USA citizens are distantly related. The same holds true, and probably more so, for other nations around the world. Immigration is the official process of adoption into this large family. Illegal immigrants are masquerading as family members. Yeah, the situation sucks for this guy, but he has not gone through the official adoption process either. Instead, he wants us to think that it is cool that he has been knowingly stealing opportunities from legit members of the American family, and that gall, that cheating behavior, just doesn't sit right with me. I cannot condone it.
      - adolph 15y ago
        By that logic, most of people living in America are as much related to the rest of the world as one another, right? http://www.american-pictures.com/genealogy/we.are.all.cousins.htm http://www.american-pictures.com/genealogy/we.are.all.cousin...
      - meric 15y ago
        He has now admitted it on a major newspaper after many years of inner conflict. What do you propose to do now?
        lupatus 15y ago
        Like I said in my original post - ship him back to the Philippines.
      - kelnos 15y ago
        Instead, he wants us to think that it is cool that he has been knowingly stealing opportunities from legit members of the American family, and that gall, that cheating behavior, just doesn't sit right with me. Sorry, dude, but I just can't have a productive discussion with you. This kind of xenophobic attitude is reprehensible in my opinion, and I just don't see either of us changing each others' minds. Let's assume for a moment that he "stole" writing jobs from legal American citizens (or legal aliens). Let's also assume for the moment that the hiring processes for those jobs were concerned with finding the best candidate for the position. I don't want a "real American" to fill that position. I want the best person for the job to fill that position. If a citizen/legal alien is actually the best person for the job, that's great. But if not: I don't care who it is, where he/she comes from, or what his/her immigration status is. Maybe for a job like a newspaper/magazine writer, it isn't absolutely critical to have the best person possible in that job. But for other jobs it's certainly important, and regardless, I'm not willing to make that value judgement.
  - anigbrowl 15y ago
    Did not downvote, but absolutely disagree. Ethnic nationalism has a bad track record, to put it mildly.
    - philwelch 15y ago
      It's a not-insignificant marker of nationality for nations which have experienced diasporas. The citizenship laws of both Israel and the Republic of Ireland grant citizenship on a fairly liberal basis, based upon Jewish or Irish descent.
    - rubashov 15y ago
      > Ethnic nationalism has a bad track record Pre 1940s Europe is a transnational jumble of overlapping ethnic groups. Result: war after war after war. Post 40s and 50s after millions of people relocate to their linguistic and ethnic homelands and coalesce into new nations carved out of empires: lasting peace. Last major war was in former Yugoslavia, which failed to get with the ethnic nationalist program. Hell, even Belgium is falling apart now. You are dead wrong on this. Ethnic nationalism is the only system that works, long term.
      - jbm 15y ago
        Would you say that Jews and Protestant Brits are of different ethnic nationalities? (Any answer other than "yes" is a cop-out or word-play.) Wouldn't your statement then be implying that the US would be better off without a large part of its congress, its best teachers, and scientists? In the long term - we are all heat decay. In the short term, all we need is a set of common values we agree on.
      - jarek 15y ago
        You conveniently left out the late 1930s and 1940s, in which a nation-state perpetuated ethnic war and genocide before being stopped primarily by two fairly transnational states. Would you be interested in a summary of 20th century armed conflicts, classified by the type of states involved? There are a couple in Asia and Africa I'm thinking of.
    - ajays 15y ago
fastfinner 15y ago
If a person's answer to this question is "no, I'd stay, even after I realize that I am breaking the laws of the country", I don't know how that person can expect sympathy after being busted (or "coming out").
- kelnos 15y ago
  I think it's totally fair to expect sympathy. I'm very sympathetic toward this guy, and as you can see from this HN thread, the majority of posters are as well.
ajays 15y ago
I'd dispute the "country you don't know" part. He keeps using the Filipino language. Having spent 12 years there, he isn't exactly a stranger. If, as a young 12-year old, he could adapt to the US (a country he _really_ didn't know), then why can't he, an educated and grown adult, adapt to the Philippines, a country where he grew up, whose language he speaks, and where he still has relatives (mom)?? This "country they don't know" falsehood is parroted by some people, and I find it very disingenuous. You don't have to lie to make your case. People immigrate to the US from other countries at all ages, and get along just fine. There's no reason that an American can't immigrate to his/her place of birth either. Growing up American doesn't make a person dumb, you know.

anigbrowl 15y ago

That is illegal, I agree. But while I wouldn't do that, I don't feel able to condemn him for dealing with a situation not of his own making. The government does not offer any procedure for a person in his position to regularize their legal status (eg do XYZ and pay a fine in restitution, which will allow you to apply for permanent residency on the same basis as a new visitor). Absent a way to live legally, he has little other choice. The immigration laws in this country were practically constructed to create this exact situation, and the same politicians who voted these draconian laws onto the books have persistently underfunded and frustrated the very systems designed to help enforce them, like entry-exit databases and the like.

fastfinner 15y ago
"Absent a way to live legally, he has little other choice." No he has a choice and he chooses to risk being busted and live in the land of opportunities. He can live legally. He can choose to go back to the native country of his parents and start a legal life there. He has graduated from a university in the US. He has done work in the US. He is much better off resume-wise than many of his peers.
- lupatus 15y ago
  Seriously! This guy would probably kick a$$ in the Philippines.
- anigbrowl 15y ago
  That is irrelevant to the question of his legal relationship with the US government, which is the matter at issue. Sure, he could go to the Philippines, but that's essentially wishing the problem away. There are a lot of people who are technically citizens of other places but who arrived in the US at such a young age that they have no memory of ever living abroad, and often don't even speak the language. Why should such people suddenly find themselves excluded from legal participation in the workforce when they reach adulthood? From a constitutional standpoint it's a very problematic question, because those persons are at a significant disadvantage without having broken any laws.