4 ms·

It's really courageous of him to come ahead with his story. I really hope he gets shipped back to the Philippines. Go ahead and call me a xenophobe now. Whate

by lupatus 15y ago

It's really courageous of him to come ahead with his story. I really hope he gets shipped back to the Philippines. Go ahead and call me a xenophobe now. Whatev. I think it is in poor form for the NYT to print this manipulative article that tries to make me feel bad for the gay, minority, do-gooder author and excuse his years of criminally fraudulent behavior. Sure, call me heartless. But, this guy is cheating you, and not in the "Oh cool hack" kind of way. He is cheating you in a Bernie-Madoff-conned-me-out-of-my-money-for-ponzi-investments-so-that-he-could-live-a-cushy-life kind of way.

splat 15y ago
What exactly has he conned you out of? He paid his taxes, he contributed to American society. It seems pretty clear that he put in more than he took. Who's losing by having him here?
rglullis 15y ago
How is he cheating me or you? What is he taking away from you?
- fastfinner 15y ago
  How is he cheating me? His family "cut the line" in building a life in the US, one of the best nations to be in, in the eyes of many on this planet. His chances of winning a Pulitzer would be severely diminished if his family had stayed in the Philippines. So he cheated me by not being subject to the same US immigration rules as I and the rest of the world. He cheated the many other aspiring college students, journalism interns, journalists by occupying a spot each time he was employed or given the opportunity to advance with fake documents.
  - rglullis 15y ago
    *His family* (...). His chances of (...) *if his family* (...) He didn't cheat you into one damn thing. The opportunities that were given to him would not be given to you or "the next in line" had he not been here. Part of what makes a wealthy nation, hum... wealthy, is the fact that it has enough resources to offer opportunities and services to the whole population. The US can give opportunities for you, him or any one that shows the necessary abilities.
    - fastfinner 15y ago
      I guess I'm looking at this situation as if he were someone whose parents faked his admission to MIT, somehow the papers slipped to the right places and he began enrolling, midway through college he learned about the faking, and then he still kept going, graduated magna/summa cum laude ("Pulitzer" - and yes I know MIT doesn't have latin recognitions), and now the truth is out. Even though he did not began college in a criminal way, in my opinion he ended it as such and all his super achievements don't justify keeping the facade. Of course all that fails if, like you say, there would be no "next in line" because there is no "line", but somehow I think there is. I tend to think there are a finite number of schools, colleges, internships, and jobs. But that seems to be the core of our argument and I may need to change the way I view opportunities in nations.
  - anigbrowl 15y ago
    Your argument assumes a fixed number of available opportunities. In the work context, this is known as a 'lump of labor' fallacy.
    - lupatus 15y ago
      Your 'lump of labor' logical fallacy contradicts the principle of 'the bottom line'. As a journalist, he is not creating work, but performing work assigned to him by a superior. His amount of available work to perform is limited.
      - rglullis 15y ago
        Was he assigned to write this piece? Being a journalist is much more than being a reporter.
      - anigbrowl 15y ago
        That's not even wrong. Please decide what you want to say, and them say it, at which point I will be happy to engage with you.
stellar678 15y ago
How and who is he cheating? You think he's not paying taxes? You think he's contributing to overloaded social services? From what I can tell he's not working under table. (i.e. taxes are being withheld and paid on behalf of whatever social security number he's using.) And he obviously was unable to avail himself of college financial help due to his immigration status, so it seems pretty unlikely that he's able to be a drain on many other social programs. So how he is cheating me?
anigbrowl 15y ago
What years of criminally fraudlent behavior? He was brought into the country at age 12. Legally, he wasn't even capable of committing fraud because he hadn't reached the age of criminal responsibility. You can't even hold someone under the age of 18 to a contract, which is why most companies require an adult co-signer for any minor who wants to enter into one.
- lupatus 15y ago
  True. But, he was not a minor or forced against his will when he decided to check the citizen box on the I-9, or when he decided to pursue a writing career in New York instead of Manilla, or every time he decided as an adult to stay in the USA while knowing he was here illegally.
  - lutorm 15y ago
    I suppose if you suddenly were to find out that you were actually illegally present in the U.S., you'd be a good, law-abiding noncitizen and cheerfully go back to the country you don't know?
    - lupatus 15y ago
      Yup. :) Nations are basically large families. Imagine you spent your whole life thinking you were part of Family A. But then, you discovered you weren't biologically part of Family A or actually adopted by Family A, instead Family A kidnapped you. Would you be inclined to stay with Family A, or would you seek out Family P - your biological family? Similarly, would you want to stay with Nation A or go seek out Nation P? I would go seek out Nation P.
      - lupatus 15y ago
        For those downvoting this comment, why? Do you disagree that nations are basically large families? Am I in the wrong to want to hypothetically seek out my biological family or nation of origin? Or, do you disagree with my viewpoint and want me to shut up?
lupatus 15y ago
He has knowingly used fraud for years to get work, educational, and lifesytle opportunities that would have otherwise gone to people legally allowed to work, study, and reside here. Paying taxes or writing keen articles does not excuse this fact. Hence, he is cheating[1]. [1] Wikipedia defines cheating as, "... the breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation." That seems to be a accurate summary of the author's activities. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating.
- fastfinner 15y ago
  Exactly. Paying taxes does not make the situation fair. All his life he has "filled a spot" of an opportunity that would have otherwise been available to someone else. His achievements ("the end") do not justify the means.
  - lupatus 15y ago
    fastfinner, you may just want to stop trying to convince them or your karma might drop 20+ points in an hour like mine just did.
  - tfs 15y ago
    fastfinner- you are assuming there is someone else who is totally interchangeable with him? Things he did does not sound fungible to me.
- iandanforth 15y ago
  If the game is 'get a job' and the competition is merit based. Then no, he didn't cheat, he kicked ass. If the game is 'obtain the opportunity to get a job' then, yup he cheated. Barriers to entry are sometimes needed, but if the only thing you did to get over that barrier was be born on the correct side of an imaginary line, well, that just doesn't impress me. Really, american born citizens can't complain about this without sounding like entitled brats. 'I want to win despite my lack of ability.' No sympathy there. Foreign born citizens that worked hard through the system to get citizenship have a little to be annoyed about, but really the only class of people who can really even say 'boo' to Jose are people who faced his situation and chose to leave and then worked their way back in. If that class of people exists then I would have just one question for them: "Would you support the DREAM act?" I really and truly have a hard time believing that they would say, "No."

by lupatus 15y ago

splat 15y ago

What exactly has he conned you out of? He paid his taxes, he contributed to American society. It seems pretty clear that he put in more than he took. Who's losing by having him here?

rglullis 15y ago

How is he cheating me or you? What is he taking away from you?

fastfinner 15y ago
How is he cheating me? His family "cut the line" in building a life in the US, one of the best nations to be in, in the eyes of many on this planet. His chances of winning a Pulitzer would be severely diminished if his family had stayed in the Philippines. So he cheated me by not being subject to the same US immigration rules as I and the rest of the world. He cheated the many other aspiring college students, journalism interns, journalists by occupying a spot each time he was employed or given the opportunity to advance with fake documents.
- rglullis 15y ago
  *His family* (...). His chances of (...) *if his family* (...) He didn't cheat you into one damn thing. The opportunities that were given to him would not be given to you or "the next in line" had he not been here. Part of what makes a wealthy nation, hum... wealthy, is the fact that it has enough resources to offer opportunities and services to the whole population. The US can give opportunities for you, him or any one that shows the necessary abilities.
  - fastfinner 15y ago
    I guess I'm looking at this situation as if he were someone whose parents faked his admission to MIT, somehow the papers slipped to the right places and he began enrolling, midway through college he learned about the faking, and then he still kept going, graduated magna/summa cum laude ("Pulitzer" - and yes I know MIT doesn't have latin recognitions), and now the truth is out. Even though he did not began college in a criminal way, in my opinion he ended it as such and all his super achievements don't justify keeping the facade. Of course all that fails if, like you say, there would be no "next in line" because there is no "line", but somehow I think there is. I tend to think there are a finite number of schools, colleges, internships, and jobs. But that seems to be the core of our argument and I may need to change the way I view opportunities in nations.
- anigbrowl 15y ago
  Your argument assumes a fixed number of available opportunities. In the work context, this is known as a 'lump of labor' fallacy.
  - lupatus 15y ago
    Your 'lump of labor' logical fallacy contradicts the principle of 'the bottom line'. As a journalist, he is not creating work, but performing work assigned to him by a superior. His amount of available work to perform is limited.
    - rglullis 15y ago
      Was he assigned to write this piece? Being a journalist is much more than being a reporter.
    - anigbrowl 15y ago
      That's not even wrong. Please decide what you want to say, and them say it, at which point I will be happy to engage with you.

stellar678 15y ago

How and who is he cheating? You think he's not paying taxes? You think he's contributing to overloaded social services? From what I can tell he's not working under table. (i.e. taxes are being withheld and paid on behalf of whatever social security number he's using.) And he obviously was unable to avail himself of college financial help due to his immigration status, so it seems pretty unlikely that he's able to be a drain on many other social programs. So how he is cheating me?

anigbrowl 15y ago

What years of criminally fraudlent behavior? He was brought into the country at age 12. Legally, he wasn't even capable of committing fraud because he hadn't reached the age of criminal responsibility. You can't even hold someone under the age of 18 to a contract, which is why most companies require an adult co-signer for any minor who wants to enter into one.

lupatus 15y ago
True. But, he was not a minor or forced against his will when he decided to check the citizen box on the I-9, or when he decided to pursue a writing career in New York instead of Manilla, or every time he decided as an adult to stay in the USA while knowing he was here illegally.
- lutorm 15y ago
  I suppose if you suddenly were to find out that you were actually illegally present in the U.S., you'd be a good, law-abiding noncitizen and cheerfully go back to the country you don't know?
  - lupatus 15y ago
    Yup. :) Nations are basically large families. Imagine you spent your whole life thinking you were part of Family A. But then, you discovered you weren't biologically part of Family A or actually adopted by Family A, instead Family A kidnapped you. Would you be inclined to stay with Family A, or would you seek out Family P - your biological family? Similarly, would you want to stay with Nation A or go seek out Nation P? I would go seek out Nation P.
    - lupatus 15y ago
      For those downvoting this comment, why? Do you disagree that nations are basically large families? Am I in the wrong to want to hypothetically seek out my biological family or nation of origin? Or, do you disagree with my viewpoint and want me to shut up?

lupatus 15y ago

He has knowingly used fraud for years to get work, educational, and lifesytle opportunities that would have otherwise gone to people legally allowed to work, study, and reside here. Paying taxes or writing keen articles does not excuse this fact. Hence, he is cheating[1]. [1] Wikipedia defines cheating as, "... the breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation." That seems to be a accurate summary of the author's activities. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating.

fastfinner 15y ago
Exactly. Paying taxes does not make the situation fair. All his life he has "filled a spot" of an opportunity that would have otherwise been available to someone else. His achievements ("the end") do not justify the means.
- lupatus 15y ago
  fastfinner, you may just want to stop trying to convince them or your karma might drop 20+ points in an hour like mine just did.
- tfs 15y ago
  fastfinner- you are assuming there is someone else who is totally interchangeable with him? Things he did does not sound fungible to me.
iandanforth 15y ago
If the game is 'get a job' and the competition is merit based. Then no, he didn't cheat, he kicked ass. If the game is 'obtain the opportunity to get a job' then, yup he cheated. Barriers to entry are sometimes needed, but if the only thing you did to get over that barrier was be born on the correct side of an imaginary line, well, that just doesn't impress me. Really, american born citizens can't complain about this without sounding like entitled brats. 'I want to win despite my lack of ability.' No sympathy there. Foreign born citizens that worked hard through the system to get citizenship have a little to be annoyed about, but really the only class of people who can really even say 'boo' to Jose are people who faced his situation and chose to leave and then worked their way back in. If that class of people exists then I would have just one question for them: "Would you support the DREAM act?" I really and truly have a hard time believing that they would say, "No."