5 ms·

EXACTLY!!! There are so many people who are trying to come and contribute to the US society through legal means. They run into all kinds of obstacles and barrie

EXACTLY!!! There are so many people who are trying to come and contribute to the US society through legal means. They run into all kinds of obstacles and barriers. Meanwhile it's OK to get a citizenship through fake passports?

starwed 15y ago
I just find it weird that everyone regards becoming a citizen by birth as so much fairer than becoming a citizen by sneaking in.
- fastfinner 15y ago
  Oh on a philosophical level it is quite unfair. It's not fair at all that all humans are not regarded as equals. It's really unfair that I should be withheld from visiting or living on a piece of the planet because there happens the be a group of people on it that made a "nation" and the "nation" has invisible "borders" and the "borders" are by "law" not penetrable by people from my "nation". But such is the case. If Jose or anyone else wants to change this inherent unfairness they can do that. Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. It is extremely unfair to the people who are also trying to immigrate to the US, but do so by entering lotteries, applying for GCs and all.
  - fastfinner 15y ago
    May I learn the reason of the down-vote? I am answering to the issue of the fairness of citizenship-by-birth raised in the parent. I draw a distinction between entrenched inequality in world order and the more amenable inequalities.
    - trustfundbaby 15y ago
      I didn't downvote you but I bet its for this "Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes" The guy didn't choose to be put in that situation, that decision was made for him. I think that's deserving of some empathy ... but that's just me.
    - dennisgorelik 15y ago
      You are NOT answering the issue of fairness of citizenship-by-birth. You are just claiming that it's ok to have discrimination by contry of birth. Well, unfair discrimination is NOT OK. That's why you are getting downvoted. I personally did not downvote you. Even though I strongly disagree - at least you are trying to understand.
      - freshfunk 15y ago
        You're framing the argument in a way that makes your position stronger and his weaker. But, in your framing, I think you miss some basic points. For me, it comes down to what he said here: >Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. The thing is that everyone else who is in the line is also hoping for a better life. So what justifies someone cutting? In this specific case, he had no choice in the matter (put on a plane as a kid) so I think he should be allowed to stay. But every other adult is, in my opinion, cutting in line.
        dennisgorelik 15y ago
        Instead of comparing illegal immigrants against legal immigrants, focus on comparing illegal immigrants against citizens who got their privileges by birth. Share with us why immigrants are discriminated against and if this discrimination is fair.
        dennisgorelik 15y ago
        America established immigration system in order to make it NOT fair [for immigrants]. Prior to introducing that immigration system there was no legal discrimination by country of origin. Whether there should be no concept of citizenry is a different topic outside of scope of this discussion.
        freshfunk 15y ago
        How is it not fair? Because you say so? Because you disagree with the system? Is it more fair to have a free for all where people sneak in? It's convenient to say something is not fair as justification to break all the rules.
  - wnight 15y ago
    > But such is the case. If Jose or anyone else wants to change this inherent unfairness they can do that. Many undocumented immigrants are. They're ignoring it. And, if you do catch and deport them, at great cost, you're just cutting one more local job. Congrats.
kelnos 15y ago
Meanwhile it's OK to get a citizenship through fake passports? Why not? Think about it has hacking / routing around a broken system and it doesn't sound so bad. These are precisely the kinds of people I want living in working in the US: hard-working individuals who want to better themselves and those around them, and are willing to do anything to get there. Or maybe I just hate waiting in lines.

starwed 15y ago

I just find it weird that everyone regards becoming a citizen by birth as so much fairer than becoming a citizen by sneaking in.

fastfinner 15y ago
Oh on a philosophical level it is quite unfair. It's not fair at all that all humans are not regarded as equals. It's really unfair that I should be withheld from visiting or living on a piece of the planet because there happens the be a group of people on it that made a "nation" and the "nation" has invisible "borders" and the "borders" are by "law" not penetrable by people from my "nation". But such is the case. If Jose or anyone else wants to change this inherent unfairness they can do that. Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. It is extremely unfair to the people who are also trying to immigrate to the US, but do so by entering lotteries, applying for GCs and all.
- fastfinner 15y ago
  May I learn the reason of the down-vote? I am answering to the issue of the fairness of citizenship-by-birth raised in the parent. I draw a distinction between entrenched inequality in world order and the more amenable inequalities.
  - trustfundbaby 15y ago
    I didn't downvote you but I bet its for this "Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes" The guy didn't choose to be put in that situation, that decision was made for him. I think that's deserving of some empathy ... but that's just me.
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    You are NOT answering the issue of fairness of citizenship-by-birth. You are just claiming that it's ok to have discrimination by contry of birth. Well, unfair discrimination is NOT OK. That's why you are getting downvoted. I personally did not downvote you. Even though I strongly disagree - at least you are trying to understand.
    - freshfunk 15y ago
      You're framing the argument in a way that makes your position stronger and his weaker. But, in your framing, I think you miss some basic points. For me, it comes down to what he said here: >Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. The thing is that everyone else who is in the line is also hoping for a better life. So what justifies someone cutting? In this specific case, he had no choice in the matter (put on a plane as a kid) so I think he should be allowed to stay. But every other adult is, in my opinion, cutting in line.
      - dennisgorelik 15y ago
        Instead of comparing illegal immigrants against legal immigrants, focus on comparing illegal immigrants against citizens who got their privileges by birth. Share with us why immigrants are discriminated against and if this discrimination is fair.
        dennisgorelik 15y ago
        America established immigration system in order to make it NOT fair [for immigrants]. Prior to introducing that immigration system there was no legal discrimination by country of origin. Whether there should be no concept of citizenry is a different topic outside of scope of this discussion.
        freshfunk 15y ago
        How is it not fair? Because you say so? Because you disagree with the system? Is it more fair to have a free for all where people sneak in? It's convenient to say something is not fair as justification to break all the rules.
- wnight 15y ago
  > But such is the case. If Jose or anyone else wants to change this inherent unfairness they can do that. Many undocumented immigrants are. They're ignoring it. And, if you do catch and deport them, at great cost, you're just cutting one more local job. Congrats.

kelnos 15y ago

Meanwhile it's OK to get a citizenship through fake passports? Why not? Think about it has hacking / routing around a broken system and it doesn't sound so bad. These are precisely the kinds of people I want living in working in the US: hard-working individuals who want to better themselves and those around them, and are willing to do anything to get there. Or maybe I just hate waiting in lines.