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We're already successfully killing third party cookies and most browser fingerprinting strategies. This is an attempt by a browser to build an intentionally use

We're already successfully killing third party cookies and most browser fingerprinting strategies. This is an attempt by a browser to build an intentionally user hostile mechanic to compensate, but we can kill this too. We just need to continue to make it increasingly impractical and expensive to track users until it stops being considered a viable business strategy.

skybrian 6y ago
What do you mean? They are widely used, which seems far from dead. Aren’t you declaring victory too early?
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  These are strategies that are being aggressively restricted. Chrome has not started preventing third party cookies yet, but they're the last holdout and have already stated they will kill them shortly. If you're using a non-user-hostile browser, these strategies are already heavily limited by default and are already not a concern. Every Firefox release is making significant improvements on reducing the fingerprinting footprint of the browser, and several user-hostile API features proposed by Google have been rejected by them and Safari to prevent expanded fingerprinting.
  - skybrian 6y ago
    Okay, I still think it’s too soon to declare victory until Chrome actually does it. It could be delayed.
  - jefftk 6y ago
    > Chrome has not started preventing third party cookies yet, but they're the last holdout and have already stated they will kill them shortly. Chrome's original announcement about phasing out third-party cookies is explicit about new technologies like Privacy Sandbox (which includes FLoc) being how third-party cookies will no longer be needed: "After initial dialogue with the web community, we are confident that with continued iteration and feedback, privacy-preserving and open-standard mechanisms like the Privacy Sandbox can sustain a healthy, ad-supported web in a way that will render third-party cookies obsolete. Once these approaches have addressed the needs of users, publishers, and advertisers, and we have developed the tools to mitigate workarounds, we plan to phase out support for third-party cookies in Chrome. Our intention is to do this within two years." -- https://blog.chromium.org/2020/01/building-more-private-web-path-towards.html https://blog.chromium.org/2020/01/building-more-private-web-... (Disclosure: I work on ads at Google, speaking only for myself)
    - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
      Rhetorical thought question: How long could Chrome survive as the only browser which refuses to stop tracking users? The idea that Chrome was the fastest or best browser has fallen pretty far out and behind those which block tracking scripts and ad content, and two alternatives to Google straight up pay users to use them, where's the carrot for using Chrome?
    - fomine3 6y ago
      So probably the phasing out third-party cookies will be postponed due to these reaction?
      - jefftk 6y ago
        It is not clear to me at all what the overall view is on FLoC. Brave and Vivaldi don't like it, sure, but they already ship with built-in ad blockers so of course they don't. People here who don't like it also seem to be against advertising in any form beyond direct deals between publishers and advertisers for <img src="https://advertiser.example/ad https://advertiser.example/ad">. If there are people who are (a) ok with personalized ads, providing they can be done sufficiently privately and (b) do not like FLoC, then I'd love to read what they have to say! (Still speaking only for myself.)
        orangecat 6y ago
        People here who don't like it also seem to be against advertising in any form beyond direct deals between publishers and advertisers I doubt many people object to ad networks and real time bidding; it's just that the user's personal information shouldn't be exposed in the process. Yes, that means the only signals you'd get are the current page, and maybe high-level OS/browser/device info. (a) ok with personalized ads, providing they can be done sufficiently privately My opinion, which I think is fairly common around here, is that what you're describing is fundamentally impossible. Much like the incessant government demands for encryption backdoors that don't compromise security.
        6y ago
- thejohnconway 6y ago
  Safari and Firefox already block them by default, and Chrome is set to block them before 2022: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/google-chrome-cookies-third-party-ads https://www.wired.co.uk/article/google-chrome-cookies-third-... The FLoC proposal (and others) are happening now because of the coming cookiepocalypse.
  - jefftk 6y ago
    The causality is more complex: Chrome's approach from the beginning was that they would remove third-party cookies and replace them with more private alternatives like FLoC: https://blog.chromium.org/2020/01/building-more-private-web-path-towards.html https://blog.chromium.org/2020/01/building-more-private-web-... (Disclosure: I work on ads at Google, speaking only for myself)
    - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
      If we kill FLoC, my hope would be that Google still finds it untenable to backpedal on removing third party cookies... or that public awareness about Google's antiprivacy stance kills Chrome if they do backpedal. It's simple: We force Google to stop tracking us, or we stop using Google products.
      - jefftk 6y ago
        Chrome is not the only browser working on more advertising-specific APIs as more-private replacements for third-party cookies. For example, Edge is proposing PARAKEET [1] for remarketing, and Safari has implemented an initial conversion tracking API [2]. [1] https://github.com/WICG/privacy-preserving-ads/blob/main/Parakeet.md https://github.com/WICG/privacy-preserving-ads/blob/main/Par... [2] https://webkit.org/blog/8943/privacy-preserving-ad-click-attribution-for-the-web/ https://webkit.org/blog/8943/privacy-preserving-ad-click-att...
        ocdtrekkie 6y ago
        Yeah, I've heard of PARAKEET, and imagine concerns are quite similar to FLoC. Thankfully, Microsoft doesn't have the capability to push web standards, so as long as Google doesn't adopt it, we are good there. =) Apple's solution doesn't look like it provides user interests or demographics, does it?
izacus 6y ago
By "we" here you mean... Google with Chrome (as the most popular browser), Apple with Safari and Mozilla with Firefow. Google being the one against whom the fight against FLoC is being fought? That sounds... optimistic since you needed Google to form that "we".

skybrian 6y ago

What do you mean? They are widely used, which seems far from dead. Aren’t you declaring victory too early?

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
These are strategies that are being aggressively restricted. Chrome has not started preventing third party cookies yet, but they're the last holdout and have already stated they will kill them shortly. If you're using a non-user-hostile browser, these strategies are already heavily limited by default and are already not a concern. Every Firefox release is making significant improvements on reducing the fingerprinting footprint of the browser, and several user-hostile API features proposed by Google have been rejected by them and Safari to prevent expanded fingerprinting.
- skybrian 6y ago
  Okay, I still think it’s too soon to declare victory until Chrome actually does it. It could be delayed.
- jefftk 6y ago
  > Chrome has not started preventing third party cookies yet, but they're the last holdout and have already stated they will kill them shortly. Chrome's original announcement about phasing out third-party cookies is explicit about new technologies like Privacy Sandbox (which includes FLoc) being how third-party cookies will no longer be needed: "After initial dialogue with the web community, we are confident that with continued iteration and feedback, privacy-preserving and open-standard mechanisms like the Privacy Sandbox can sustain a healthy, ad-supported web in a way that will render third-party cookies obsolete. Once these approaches have addressed the needs of users, publishers, and advertisers, and we have developed the tools to mitigate workarounds, we plan to phase out support for third-party cookies in Chrome. Our intention is to do this within two years." -- https://blog.chromium.org/2020/01/building-more-private-web-path-towards.html https://blog.chromium.org/2020/01/building-more-private-web-... (Disclosure: I work on ads at Google, speaking only for myself)
  - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
    Rhetorical thought question: How long could Chrome survive as the only browser which refuses to stop tracking users? The idea that Chrome was the fastest or best browser has fallen pretty far out and behind those which block tracking scripts and ad content, and two alternatives to Google straight up pay users to use them, where's the carrot for using Chrome?
  - fomine3 6y ago
    So probably the phasing out third-party cookies will be postponed due to these reaction?
    - jefftk 6y ago
      It is not clear to me at all what the overall view is on FLoC. Brave and Vivaldi don't like it, sure, but they already ship with built-in ad blockers so of course they don't. People here who don't like it also seem to be against advertising in any form beyond direct deals between publishers and advertisers for <img src="https://advertiser.example/ad https://advertiser.example/ad">. If there are people who are (a) ok with personalized ads, providing they can be done sufficiently privately and (b) do not like FLoC, then I'd love to read what they have to say! (Still speaking only for myself.)
      - orangecat 6y ago
        People here who don't like it also seem to be against advertising in any form beyond direct deals between publishers and advertisers I doubt many people object to ad networks and real time bidding; it's just that the user's personal information shouldn't be exposed in the process. Yes, that means the only signals you'd get are the current page, and maybe high-level OS/browser/device info. (a) ok with personalized ads, providing they can be done sufficiently privately My opinion, which I think is fairly common around here, is that what you're describing is fundamentally impossible. Much like the incessant government demands for encryption backdoors that don't compromise security.
        6y ago
thejohnconway 6y ago
Safari and Firefox already block them by default, and Chrome is set to block them before 2022: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/google-chrome-cookies-third-party-ads https://www.wired.co.uk/article/google-chrome-cookies-third-... The FLoC proposal (and others) are happening now because of the coming cookiepocalypse.
- jefftk 6y ago
  The causality is more complex: Chrome's approach from the beginning was that they would remove third-party cookies and replace them with more private alternatives like FLoC: https://blog.chromium.org/2020/01/building-more-private-web-path-towards.html https://blog.chromium.org/2020/01/building-more-private-web-... (Disclosure: I work on ads at Google, speaking only for myself)
  - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
    If we kill FLoC, my hope would be that Google still finds it untenable to backpedal on removing third party cookies... or that public awareness about Google's antiprivacy stance kills Chrome if they do backpedal. It's simple: We force Google to stop tracking us, or we stop using Google products.
    - jefftk 6y ago
      Chrome is not the only browser working on more advertising-specific APIs as more-private replacements for third-party cookies. For example, Edge is proposing PARAKEET [1] for remarketing, and Safari has implemented an initial conversion tracking API [2]. [1] https://github.com/WICG/privacy-preserving-ads/blob/main/Parakeet.md https://github.com/WICG/privacy-preserving-ads/blob/main/Par... [2] https://webkit.org/blog/8943/privacy-preserving-ad-click-attribution-for-the-web/ https://webkit.org/blog/8943/privacy-preserving-ad-click-att...
      - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
        Yeah, I've heard of PARAKEET, and imagine concerns are quite similar to FLoC. Thankfully, Microsoft doesn't have the capability to push web standards, so as long as Google doesn't adopt it, we are good there. =) Apple's solution doesn't look like it provides user interests or demographics, does it?

izacus 6y ago

By "we" here you mean... Google with Chrome (as the most popular browser), Apple with Safari and Mozilla with Firefow. Google being the one against whom the fight against FLoC is being fought? That sounds... optimistic since you needed Google to form that "we".