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> Debian will issue no comment, 2/3+ of voters in Debian supported calling for RMSs removal. It's clear which way the tide is moving, even if Debian says nothin

> Debian will issue no comment, 2/3+ of voters in Debian supported calling for RMSs removal. It's clear which way the tide is moving, even if Debian says nothing. FWIW, some people didn’t want to vote because the results would be publicly with names. So the result of a secret vote might have been different.

Pfhreak 5y ago
Your hypothesis is that people voted opposite of their beliefs? Or that they chose not to vote at all? Both of those feel like possibilities, but probably not in any significant number. In absence of evidence to the contrary, I'd say it's reasonable to look at the results of a vote as evidence of how people actually feel. Edit: Vote numbers seem consistent with other votes in Debian's history, so it does not appear that a large number of people elected not to vote.
tedunangst 5y ago
They should have gated this vote with a yes/no vote on whether to vote.
- cbmuser 5y ago
  No, it simply shouldn’t have been public. The DPL elections aren’t public either.
  - em-bee 5y ago
    correct, but the debian rules on this issue state that only the elections are not public. there are no provisions for private votes on resolutions. this may change in the future if enough people find that (optionally) private votes on resolutions are a good idea.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  The "Further discussion" option is meant to allow for that. Note that the options calling for a statement in support of RMS were even less preferred than "Further discussion", which is quite weird given the context so GP may well have a point.
  - remram 5y ago
    Why do you think it is quite weird? Historically, is the "further discussion" always at the bottom? edit: I found those, so it's not that weird, but not very common: Init systems https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 ; Delaying Lenny https://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_003 https://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_003 ; Change to membership procedures https://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_002 https://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_002
  - em-bee 5y ago
    the more controversial or sensitive a topic, the more likely it is that people will believe that more discussion is needed before a decision is reached, so i don't find that at all surprising.
- Pfhreak 5y ago
  No, they should have used a standard process for general resolutions and not special cased it. Which is what they did. They have a constitution and a democratic process that requires proposals, seconding, a period of open discussion, and then a vote. They agreed on their voting system in advance exactly to handle cases where the vote might be contentious.
deleted 5y ago
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raverbashing 5y ago
I'm surprised Debian didn't invent a way to do secure secret voting by email already (and by some of the technical comments on the results page I kind of though it was secret)
- jbicha 5y ago
  Debian knows how to do secret voting. In fact, Debian's latest election of their Project Leader which also ended last night was secret. It looks like it would need a General Resolution to allow secret voting for future General Resolutions.
ikerdanzel 5y ago
Public vs secret voting will always be different. I encountered this on daily basis. If vote in secret, one tends to be what one wants even if that is detrimental to others. As for self belief, public disclosed/known belief may not always be the same as self belief. This may consciously or unconsciously known by oneself. People do tend to vote in group if others see your vote.

Pfhreak 5y ago

Your hypothesis is that people voted opposite of their beliefs? Or that they chose not to vote at all? Both of those feel like possibilities, but probably not in any significant number. In absence of evidence to the contrary, I'd say it's reasonable to look at the results of a vote as evidence of how people actually feel. Edit: Vote numbers seem consistent with other votes in Debian's history, so it does not appear that a large number of people elected not to vote.

tedunangst 5y ago

They should have gated this vote with a yes/no vote on whether to vote.

cbmuser 5y ago
No, it simply shouldn’t have been public. The DPL elections aren’t public either.
- em-bee 5y ago
  correct, but the debian rules on this issue state that only the elections are not public. there are no provisions for private votes on resolutions. this may change in the future if enough people find that (optionally) private votes on resolutions are a good idea.
zozbot234 5y ago
The "Further discussion" option is meant to allow for that. Note that the options calling for a statement in support of RMS were even less preferred than "Further discussion", which is quite weird given the context so GP may well have a point.
- remram 5y ago
  Why do you think it is quite weird? Historically, is the "further discussion" always at the bottom? edit: I found those, so it's not that weird, but not very common: Init systems https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 ; Delaying Lenny https://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_003 https://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_003 ; Change to membership procedures https://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_002 https://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_002
- em-bee 5y ago
  the more controversial or sensitive a topic, the more likely it is that people will believe that more discussion is needed before a decision is reached, so i don't find that at all surprising.
Pfhreak 5y ago
No, they should have used a standard process for general resolutions and not special cased it. Which is what they did. They have a constitution and a democratic process that requires proposals, seconding, a period of open discussion, and then a vote. They agreed on their voting system in advance exactly to handle cases where the vote might be contentious.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

raverbashing 5y ago

I'm surprised Debian didn't invent a way to do secure secret voting by email already (and by some of the technical comments on the results page I kind of though it was secret)

jbicha 5y ago
Debian knows how to do secret voting. In fact, Debian's latest election of their Project Leader which also ended last night was secret. It looks like it would need a General Resolution to allow secret voting for future General Resolutions.

ikerdanzel 5y ago

Public vs secret voting will always be different. I encountered this on daily basis. If vote in secret, one tends to be what one wants even if that is detrimental to others. As for self belief, public disclosed/known belief may not always be the same as self belief. This may consciously or unconsciously known by oneself. People do tend to vote in group if others see your vote.