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I propose that Tesla may need to rethink "the way it works" rather then chalk it up to the price of doing business.

ajross 6y ago
You think Tesla needs to rethink the fact that... batteries store a lot of energy? I really think you're missing the point. Going full-on didactic on you: Vehicles have huge energy requirements to move them around. To meet those requirement they need to store energy on-board in some manner. This creates known failure modes where damage to the vehicle releases that energy in an uncontrolled way. That's bad. But it's completely unavoidable given the constraints of the system. You seem to want Tesla to do the impossible and invent batteries that don't burn. Which seems ridiculous, given e.g. Ford's nearly-century-long failure to invent gasoline that doesn't burn. The question you should be asking is "Are battery fires safer than gasoline fires?". And... duh. Yes, they are. And it's not even close.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > You think Tesla needs to rethink the fact that... batteries store a lot of energy? Just as the environmental externalities of fossil fuels need to be internalized, so do the public safety externalities of the kinds of batteries in use, here. If its going to be a “price of doing business”, the right parties ought to pay the price. Then, whether or not it is sensible to mitigate in manufacturing will be handled by the properly-aligned incentives.
  - ajross 6y ago
    But what are the externalities?! You and the upthread poster aren't elucidating any. All we have at hand is the linked article, which is... a fire. Batteries burn, in a safer and more controlled way than gasoline. How is that a bad thing? What are you asking for battery or car manufacturers to do that they aren't already doing simply by replacing existing more-dangerous technology?
    - ziml77 6y ago
      Where are you getting this bit about batteries being safer from? So far you haven't supported this claim in any way.
- sorokod 6y ago
  Can you share the data that shows that car battery fires are "safer" then car petrol tank fires?
  - ajross 6y ago
    No no no, logic works the other way around: you are the one claiming that this is a new and more dangerous technology. If you want to do that, you are the one who needs to bring evidence. I'm simply arguing from first principles: car batteries store less energy than fuel tanks and release that energy slower and over a longer period of time in a fire. Ergo, they are safer for pretty obvious reasons.
    - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
      Most car fires do not actually involve the entire gasoline tank catching alight; as the gas tank is well-protected and not particularly near sources of ignition. An engine bay fire is much more common. If gasoline is spilled, foam works well to extinguish it and keep it from igniting. Once a gasoline fire is out and cool, it is going to stay that way, Lithium-ion battery fires are self-sustaining thermal runaways. You cannot put out such a battery fire by smothering it; it does not need oxygen from the air. All you can do is try to keep it cool by running water on it. Even after such a fire seems cool, it can reignite unexpectedly. The actual gross volume of energy is not necessarily what makes fighting a fire dangerous or not; it's the unpredictability. Firefighters may be more worried about compressed gas-strut explosions (from hatches, hoods etc) than they are about the gas tank exploding.
- fomine3 6y ago
  Reducing the battery capacity would make things better. We don't need such massive battery capacity for daily use but we buy them to support rare use cases.

You think Tesla needs to rethink the fact that... batteries store a lot of energy? I really think you're missing the point. Going full-on didactic on you: Vehicles have huge energy requirements to move them around. To meet those requirement they need to store energy on-board in some manner. This creates known failure modes where damage to the vehicle releases that energy in an uncontrolled way. That's bad. But it's completely unavoidable given the constraints of the system. You seem to want Tesla to do the impossible and invent batteries that don't burn. Which seems ridiculous, given e.g. Ford's nearly-century-long failure to invent gasoline that doesn't burn. The question you should be asking is "Are battery fires safer than gasoline fires?". And... duh. Yes, they are. And it's not even close.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> You think Tesla needs to rethink the fact that... batteries store a lot of energy? Just as the environmental externalities of fossil fuels need to be internalized, so do the public safety externalities of the kinds of batteries in use, here. If its going to be a “price of doing business”, the right parties ought to pay the price. Then, whether or not it is sensible to mitigate in manufacturing will be handled by the properly-aligned incentives.
- ajross 6y ago
  But what are the externalities?! You and the upthread poster aren't elucidating any. All we have at hand is the linked article, which is... a fire. Batteries burn, in a safer and more controlled way than gasoline. How is that a bad thing? What are you asking for battery or car manufacturers to do that they aren't already doing simply by replacing existing more-dangerous technology?
  - ziml77 6y ago
    Where are you getting this bit about batteries being safer from? So far you haven't supported this claim in any way.
sorokod 6y ago
Can you share the data that shows that car battery fires are "safer" then car petrol tank fires?
- ajross 6y ago
  No no no, logic works the other way around: you are the one claiming that this is a new and more dangerous technology. If you want to do that, you are the one who needs to bring evidence. I'm simply arguing from first principles: car batteries store less energy than fuel tanks and release that energy slower and over a longer period of time in a fire. Ergo, they are safer for pretty obvious reasons.
  - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
    Most car fires do not actually involve the entire gasoline tank catching alight; as the gas tank is well-protected and not particularly near sources of ignition. An engine bay fire is much more common. If gasoline is spilled, foam works well to extinguish it and keep it from igniting. Once a gasoline fire is out and cool, it is going to stay that way, Lithium-ion battery fires are self-sustaining thermal runaways. You cannot put out such a battery fire by smothering it; it does not need oxygen from the air. All you can do is try to keep it cool by running water on it. Even after such a fire seems cool, it can reignite unexpectedly. The actual gross volume of energy is not necessarily what makes fighting a fire dangerous or not; it's the unpredictability. Firefighters may be more worried about compressed gas-strut explosions (from hatches, hoods etc) than they are about the gas tank exploding.
fomine3 6y ago
Reducing the battery capacity would make things better. We don't need such massive battery capacity for daily use but we buy them to support rare use cases.