4 ms·

Working on this issue how? Trying to find/provide work for these people or simply trying to change the law. There's a big difference between the two and knowing

by ktsmith 15y ago

Working on this issue how? Trying to find/provide work for these people or simply trying to change the law. There's a big difference between the two and knowingly employing an undocumented worker (illegal alien) is a felony.

jeffreymcmanus 15y ago
It's illegal, but it's not a felony. Huge difference. Hiring undocumented workers, when detected (which rarely happens, particularly for small businesses), is usually punished by a civil penalty (i.e., a cash fine).
- hugh4life 15y ago
  Doing what the anigbrowl is referring to is certainly a felony...
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
    - jacis 15y ago
      I think what may have thrown some people off is your usage of the word "scheme". For myself, it elicits more negative connotations and throws off the message somewhat without spending more brain cycles.
      - anigbrowl 15y ago
        I see your point, and have updated it to say 'project' lest people get the wrong idea. I was rather upset by the sweeping declaration above that I was committing a felony, why I think should be deleted by the author since it's totally unfounded.
        hugh4life 15y ago
        You and the idiots who voted me down still don't get it... and your edit changes nothing. You can't act as an agent of employment for someone you know is illegal. "If anyone is interested in investing in a project to legally provide work opportunities for undocumented immigrants"
        anigbrowl 15y ago
        Your assumption about the point of this project is incorrect, and you don't seem like a person who's interested in having a polite conversation about this or any other subject. In a nutshell, however, there are arguments that people who are brought to the US as children may have more legal rights than is commonly supposed by those who are unfamiliar with immigration law. You would agree, I hope, that if the law actually allows something and most people had simply failed to notice it did so, that it would be legal for people to take advantage of that. Given the complexity of immigration law and of the institutional structures surrounding it, it is not very surprising that loopholes abound and are often overlooked. However, using such a loophole may still require a willingness to go through several years of expensive litigation. Suing the government is not a trivial undertaking.
- ktsmith 15y ago
  My comment was much too general and for that I apologize. It all depends on which law or section of law specifically you end up breaking. A first offense for knowingly hiring an undocumented worker will be met with fines and the fines increase through the third offense. The government however has been increasingly using criminal penalties. Hiring more then ten will also much more often result in criminal penalties including prison time. Aiding and abetting, hiding from detection or encouraging aliens to enter the country is a felony unless I misunderstand the penalties in Title 8 and I know for a fact that's what one client we did an audit for is being charged with. Knowingly accepting fraudulent documents on the Form I-9 is punishable by up to five years in prison due to the certification statement in section two. Detection rates of undocumented workers are mostly low due to employers not caring or not understanding what their requirements are under the law and lax enforcement by ICE/DHS. ICE however is stepping up investigations and just sent out another 1000 notices of intent to businesses of all sizes. We specialize in Form I-9 compliance and we constantly detect undocumented workers as part of that work. Companies that are enrolled in E-Verify are preventing many undocumented workers from even applying for jobs. Both the Senate and House are looking at bills that would make E-Verify mandatory for all employers which would make the detection rates a lot higher than they are now. Rumor has it that Senate Dems will kill these types of bills unless the Dream act passes but we'll see how long Reid can keep that up.
anigbrowl 15y ago
Did you see the bit where I said 'legally providing opportunities'? And the bit where I mentioned a law professor? And the bit where I mentioned political capital? I feel that these should be sufficient to assure you that I am not in fact promoting a criminal enterprise. I find your comment offensive. EDIT: I see that you have added some context to clarify below. Likewise, I would like to clarify that this effort is intended to be wholly within the law, and the aim is to put legal resources in place for lobbying and/or litigation. I'm not mentioning the academic persons in question because it's a large effort that will probably take several years and which has not yet been presented for discussion in a law review or as a public proposal, and I don't want to misspeak about what stage the project is at.
- ktsmith 15y ago
  I found your comment to be vague and I asked for clarification while citing a specific concern. The fact that you mentioned a law professor and political capital is mostly meaningless. Due to my employment I see all kinds of issues related to undocumented workers and all kinds of violations of immigration and employment law. Legally most undocumented workers have little to no options. A family petition if they are lucky, leaving the country and applying for re-entry if they aren't. That's an oversimplification, but not much. Edit: Thanks for the clarification and the reason for being vague. I understand your intent much more clearly now.

by ktsmith 15y ago

jeffreymcmanus 15y ago

It's illegal, but it's not a felony. Huge difference. Hiring undocumented workers, when detected (which rarely happens, particularly for small businesses), is usually punished by a civil penalty (i.e., a cash fine).

hugh4life 15y ago
Doing what the anigbrowl is referring to is certainly a felony...
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - jacis 15y ago
    I think what may have thrown some people off is your usage of the word "scheme". For myself, it elicits more negative connotations and throws off the message somewhat without spending more brain cycles.
    - anigbrowl 15y ago
      I see your point, and have updated it to say 'project' lest people get the wrong idea. I was rather upset by the sweeping declaration above that I was committing a felony, why I think should be deleted by the author since it's totally unfounded.
      - hugh4life 15y ago
        You and the idiots who voted me down still don't get it... and your edit changes nothing. You can't act as an agent of employment for someone you know is illegal. "If anyone is interested in investing in a project to legally provide work opportunities for undocumented immigrants"
        anigbrowl 15y ago
        Your assumption about the point of this project is incorrect, and you don't seem like a person who's interested in having a polite conversation about this or any other subject. In a nutshell, however, there are arguments that people who are brought to the US as children may have more legal rights than is commonly supposed by those who are unfamiliar with immigration law. You would agree, I hope, that if the law actually allows something and most people had simply failed to notice it did so, that it would be legal for people to take advantage of that. Given the complexity of immigration law and of the institutional structures surrounding it, it is not very surprising that loopholes abound and are often overlooked. However, using such a loophole may still require a willingness to go through several years of expensive litigation. Suing the government is not a trivial undertaking.
ktsmith 15y ago
My comment was much too general and for that I apologize. It all depends on which law or section of law specifically you end up breaking. A first offense for knowingly hiring an undocumented worker will be met with fines and the fines increase through the third offense. The government however has been increasingly using criminal penalties. Hiring more then ten will also much more often result in criminal penalties including prison time. Aiding and abetting, hiding from detection or encouraging aliens to enter the country is a felony unless I misunderstand the penalties in Title 8 and I know for a fact that's what one client we did an audit for is being charged with. Knowingly accepting fraudulent documents on the Form I-9 is punishable by up to five years in prison due to the certification statement in section two. Detection rates of undocumented workers are mostly low due to employers not caring or not understanding what their requirements are under the law and lax enforcement by ICE/DHS. ICE however is stepping up investigations and just sent out another 1000 notices of intent to businesses of all sizes. We specialize in Form I-9 compliance and we constantly detect undocumented workers as part of that work. Companies that are enrolled in E-Verify are preventing many undocumented workers from even applying for jobs. Both the Senate and House are looking at bills that would make E-Verify mandatory for all employers which would make the detection rates a lot higher than they are now. Rumor has it that Senate Dems will kill these types of bills unless the Dream act passes but we'll see how long Reid can keep that up.

anigbrowl 15y ago

Did you see the bit where I said 'legally providing opportunities'? And the bit where I mentioned a law professor? And the bit where I mentioned political capital? I feel that these should be sufficient to assure you that I am not in fact promoting a criminal enterprise. I find your comment offensive. EDIT: I see that you have added some context to clarify below. Likewise, I would like to clarify that this effort is intended to be wholly within the law, and the aim is to put legal resources in place for lobbying and/or litigation. I'm not mentioning the academic persons in question because it's a large effort that will probably take several years and which has not yet been presented for discussion in a law review or as a public proposal, and I don't want to misspeak about what stage the project is at.

ktsmith 15y ago
I found your comment to be vague and I asked for clarification while citing a specific concern. The fact that you mentioned a law professor and political capital is mostly meaningless. Due to my employment I see all kinds of issues related to undocumented workers and all kinds of violations of immigration and employment law. Legally most undocumented workers have little to no options. A family petition if they are lucky, leaving the country and applying for re-entry if they aren't. That's an oversimplification, but not much. Edit: Thanks for the clarification and the reason for being vague. I understand your intent much more clearly now.