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>VISA marketing Why is this even a thing? Maybe I should just go back to buying everything with cash, it's impossible to keep up with all the crap we need to d

>VISA marketing Why is this even a thing? Maybe I should just go back to buying everything with cash, it's impossible to keep up with all the crap we need to disable or hack around

pksadiq 5y ago
> Why is this even a thing? Maybe I should just go back to buying everything with cash, it's impossible to keep up with all the crap we need to disable or hack around And some agencies may be more interested in these exclusion databases. So I don't think there is any way to get out of this maze. When you sign up to exclude from a list, you get included in many other.
- mulmen 5y ago
  What’s the risk here? Am I branded as a terrorist for opting out of marketing? What’s the logic?
  - corobo 5y ago
    Lists can be used for things other than terrorists
    - mulmen 5y ago
      Obviously, such as tracking who opted out of marketing based on their credit card spend. The question is what unintended (and specifically undesirable) consequences that poses to the members of the list.
fileeditview 5y ago
> > Visa marketing I guess this is one of the things that just has to be forbidden by law.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- beforeolives 5y ago
  In the UK there are data science groups at banks that target specifically extremely wealthy customers based on their transactions and balances. I think that they only focus on wealthy customers right now because they haven't scaled up properly but the plan is to eventually expand to everyone.
  - bingojess 5y ago
    This has happened since banks started selling investment products, wealth managers simply pull up a list of cash heavy accounts who haven't opted out of marketing where they can push investment products. Think is biz model private bankers and 'Wealth Management' arms at banks are built upon
    - walshemj 5y ago
      High street banks in the UK don't really have products for HNW its normally high charging OIECs that are not good value. Ok Nat west has Coutts but not just any euro trash millionaire can get an account there
- lima 5y ago
  In Germany (and probably all of Europe), it is forbidden by law.
  - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
    I get the impression it's not forbidden in the UK. Here's the equivalent page from MasterCard. [0] (Incidentally, the captcha is broken so the page is unusable.) [0] https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/vision/terms-of-use/commitment-to-privacy/privacy/data-analytics-opt-out.html https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/vision/terms-of-use/commi...
ecopoesis 5y ago
Because credit card rewards aren’t free? Banks compete for credit card consumers by offering rewards. Those rewards cost them money. Selling consumer information is another revenue stream to make up for the cost of rewards. Most consumers are okay with this trade off: they get their airline miles / low interest / cash back in exchange for their purchase history.
- ancarda 5y ago
  >Because credit card rewards aren’t free So this isn't covered by the 1-3% transaction fee the merchant pays every time you use your card? >Most consumers are okay with this trade off No they aren't. Most consumers aren't even aware they are paying with their privacy, so you cannot take a low opt-out rate to mean high levels of consent.
  - matthewdgreen 5y ago
    It doesn’t matter if credit card providers are paid 0%, 3% or 5% on each transaction. If the law (and/or customer blowback) allows a company to sell customer information, management will eventually give in to selling it because it’s a revenue source. When called on this they will give you a story about how it “lowers customer costs” and some people will accept this as a valid excuse, but none of this changes the reality. PS: this is really a response to grandparent poster, not parent.
  - 29083011397778 5y ago
    Speaking with coworkers that aren't tech workers - nobody gives a damn. Not one, not even something resembling one. To them, they are getting paid for something they otherwise have no use for. They're aware everything is tracked about them, and they do not give a fuck. Your friends, family, and coworkers might though, so the critical mass of people not okay with this can still grow :)
- gambiting 5y ago
  Credit cards are such an American thing though. Here in UK pretty much everyone uses debit cards with no rewards. I actually have a credit card just for emergencies but it offers no rewards either.
zikzak 5y ago
A person I work with (very knowledgable about tech and IT) uses a flip phone and cash (as much as possible). If they want to send a gift they buy it locally, pack it up, and ship it. Etc. They don't even bank online. Why? Not sure but they have lots of free time and this is how they choose to spend it (trips to see a teller, back machines, part office visits, using public transport to shop for nearly everything).
- ancarda 5y ago
  >Why? Not sure Maybe they are sick of surveillance capitalism and don't wish to be part of it? I'd do the same, but I really don't want a flip phone. Maybe once Pine Phone with GNU/Linux is working reasonably well, I'll switch to that.
  - speeder 5y ago
    I actually want a good flip phone myself. I bought a locally made KaiOS phone but it has too low RAM and keep crashing. Nokia makes flip phones with KaiOS but they aren't allowed in my country sadly. Reason is I want a phone I can repair myself, all my previous phones I had to replace because some unrepairable part that didn't need to be unrepairable (one of them it was the battery!) broke down. Instead of shelling a ton of money to be tracked and buy a product that won't last, I wish I could spend my phone on something that will last. And the flip cover is convenient for me because I keep forgetting to lock my phone and managed to pocket dial even with an android.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
    https://calyxos.org/ https://calyxos.org/ and https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/ both go part of the way. They're hardened, privacy-preserving Android flavors that work best on Google Pixel 3 - 5. CalyxOS emulates google services so you can use basically any Android app, while GrapheneOS goes further down the security hardening hole.
    - ancarda 5y ago
      Huh didn't know about these, thank you! I'll look into them
conradfr 5y ago
That's why some people are working hard to make cash disappear.
qyi 5y ago
>Maybe I should just go back to buying everything with cash You should.
- benlivengood 5y ago
  Cash registers will just start scanning serial numbers on bills and banks and ATMs will scan them when dispensing. Better to focus on privacy laws.

>VISA marketing Why is this even a thing? Maybe I should just go back to buying everything with cash, it's impossible to keep up with all the crap we need to disable or hack around

pksadiq 5y ago

> Why is this even a thing? Maybe I should just go back to buying everything with cash, it's impossible to keep up with all the crap we need to disable or hack around And some agencies may be more interested in these exclusion databases. So I don't think there is any way to get out of this maze. When you sign up to exclude from a list, you get included in many other.

mulmen 5y ago
What’s the risk here? Am I branded as a terrorist for opting out of marketing? What’s the logic?
- corobo 5y ago
  Lists can be used for things other than terrorists
  - mulmen 5y ago
    Obviously, such as tracking who opted out of marketing based on their credit card spend. The question is what unintended (and specifically undesirable) consequences that poses to the members of the list.

fileeditview 5y ago

> > Visa marketing I guess this is one of the things that just has to be forbidden by law.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
beforeolives 5y ago
In the UK there are data science groups at banks that target specifically extremely wealthy customers based on their transactions and balances. I think that they only focus on wealthy customers right now because they haven't scaled up properly but the plan is to eventually expand to everyone.
- bingojess 5y ago
  This has happened since banks started selling investment products, wealth managers simply pull up a list of cash heavy accounts who haven't opted out of marketing where they can push investment products. Think is biz model private bankers and 'Wealth Management' arms at banks are built upon
  - walshemj 5y ago
    High street banks in the UK don't really have products for HNW its normally high charging OIECs that are not good value. Ok Nat west has Coutts but not just any euro trash millionaire can get an account there
lima 5y ago
In Germany (and probably all of Europe), it is forbidden by law.
- MaxBarraclough 5y ago
  I get the impression it's not forbidden in the UK. Here's the equivalent page from MasterCard. [0] (Incidentally, the captcha is broken so the page is unusable.) [0] https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/vision/terms-of-use/commitment-to-privacy/privacy/data-analytics-opt-out.html https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/vision/terms-of-use/commi...

ecopoesis 5y ago

Because credit card rewards aren’t free? Banks compete for credit card consumers by offering rewards. Those rewards cost them money. Selling consumer information is another revenue stream to make up for the cost of rewards. Most consumers are okay with this trade off: they get their airline miles / low interest / cash back in exchange for their purchase history.

ancarda 5y ago
>Because credit card rewards aren’t free So this isn't covered by the 1-3% transaction fee the merchant pays every time you use your card? >Most consumers are okay with this trade off No they aren't. Most consumers aren't even aware they are paying with their privacy, so you cannot take a low opt-out rate to mean high levels of consent.
- matthewdgreen 5y ago
  It doesn’t matter if credit card providers are paid 0%, 3% or 5% on each transaction. If the law (and/or customer blowback) allows a company to sell customer information, management will eventually give in to selling it because it’s a revenue source. When called on this they will give you a story about how it “lowers customer costs” and some people will accept this as a valid excuse, but none of this changes the reality. PS: this is really a response to grandparent poster, not parent.
- 29083011397778 5y ago
  Speaking with coworkers that aren't tech workers - nobody gives a damn. Not one, not even something resembling one. To them, they are getting paid for something they otherwise have no use for. They're aware everything is tracked about them, and they do not give a fuck. Your friends, family, and coworkers might though, so the critical mass of people not okay with this can still grow :)
gambiting 5y ago
Credit cards are such an American thing though. Here in UK pretty much everyone uses debit cards with no rewards. I actually have a credit card just for emergencies but it offers no rewards either.

zikzak 5y ago

A person I work with (very knowledgable about tech and IT) uses a flip phone and cash (as much as possible). If they want to send a gift they buy it locally, pack it up, and ship it. Etc. They don't even bank online. Why? Not sure but they have lots of free time and this is how they choose to spend it (trips to see a teller, back machines, part office visits, using public transport to shop for nearly everything).

ancarda 5y ago
>Why? Not sure Maybe they are sick of surveillance capitalism and don't wish to be part of it? I'd do the same, but I really don't want a flip phone. Maybe once Pine Phone with GNU/Linux is working reasonably well, I'll switch to that.
- speeder 5y ago
  I actually want a good flip phone myself. I bought a locally made KaiOS phone but it has too low RAM and keep crashing. Nokia makes flip phones with KaiOS but they aren't allowed in my country sadly. Reason is I want a phone I can repair myself, all my previous phones I had to replace because some unrepairable part that didn't need to be unrepairable (one of them it was the battery!) broke down. Instead of shelling a ton of money to be tracked and buy a product that won't last, I wish I could spend my phone on something that will last. And the flip cover is convenient for me because I keep forgetting to lock my phone and managed to pocket dial even with an android.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  https://calyxos.org/ https://calyxos.org/ and https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/ both go part of the way. They're hardened, privacy-preserving Android flavors that work best on Google Pixel 3 - 5. CalyxOS emulates google services so you can use basically any Android app, while GrapheneOS goes further down the security hardening hole.
  - ancarda 5y ago
    Huh didn't know about these, thank you! I'll look into them

conradfr 5y ago

That's why some people are working hard to make cash disappear.

qyi 5y ago

>Maybe I should just go back to buying everything with cash You should.

benlivengood 5y ago
Cash registers will just start scanning serial numbers on bills and banks and ATMs will scan them when dispensing. Better to focus on privacy laws.