4 ms·

They both suffer from the same problem, of being treated as a private market and not as common/public goods. Housing and Internet should be free for everyone, j

They both suffer from the same problem, of being treated as a private market and not as common/public goods. Housing and Internet should be free for everyone, just like food/healthcare/education...

Dma54rhs 6y ago
Is this really mainstream thinking now in America? None of those things are free in Europe and I've yet to find people promoting these insane ideas here, while at least online I can read about these mysterious things Europeans get free for or have.
- southerntofu 6y ago
  So is anticapitalism becoming mainstream in the USA? I would say yes, more or less: https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/10/28/poll-sponsored-anti-communists-discovers-70-us-millennials-ready-ditch-capitalism https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/10/28/poll-sponsored-... Also, historically these ideas were pretty common in the USA, with anarchist IWW being the biggest union of its time. And what you call "these insane ideas" is actually following articles the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as approved after the second World War. Do you consider basic human rights to be insane? Also worth noting, most things are not "for free" in Europe. The little rights we have our ancestors fought hard for, and they are being dismantled as we speak in the name of neoliberalism. Not so long ago France had one of the best Education and Health systems of the world, but that ship has sailed because of the desire to privatize everything and sabotage public infrastructure in the name of private profit. See also David Graeber's talk on managerial feudalism and the revolt of the caring classes: https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-11241-from_managerial_feudalism_to_the_revolt_of_the_caring_classes https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-11241-from_managerial_feudalism_...
  - sldksk 6y ago
    American communists are responsible for approximately all of the labor protections Americans have left. 40 hour work week, fire exits, minimum wage, child labor act, and the list goes on...
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    Stalin was a co-author of the UN human rights declaration. It's a political document, not some ultimate enlightened truth.
- kaba0 6y ago
  I don’t think they are mainstream, but education and healthcare is absolutely free in most of Europe, and I think it is not that controversial of a take that everyone has to live somewhere, so some form of social net/not letting arbitrarily increasing rent would be beneficial to society.
  - EdwinLarkin 6y ago
    That's such a ridiculous take on it.Have you actually used that "free healthcare in Europe"? It sucks ass. I get better healthcare in South Korea that is both cheaper and more effective than in Germany or Austria.
    - anoncake 6y ago
      If you got healthcare that's cheaper than free, you probably donated a kidney.
    - sldksk 6y ago
      On many accounts, it is better than most paid healthcare in the US and it’s objectively better than no healthcare at all, which is what many US residents are left with. But most importantly even the paid healthcare in Europe depends on the infrastructure and industry upheld by the free healthcare.
    - kaba0 6y ago
      Yes, I live here. Have YOU used it? Some poorer countries in Europe may have worse healthcare, but it usually has more to do with corrupt government not spending enough on it (but instead on fking stadiums...), and the much much better paycheck on the west (that is west Europe) causing massive migration of educated workforce throughout the years. What objective problem can you bring up? Wait time is propaganda, not worse than in the US. Private healthcare is simply immoral and barbaric, a constant, externally determined demand for something should not be exploited. And one nation level insurance is the cheapest and best way for everyone (other than the billionaires owning private healthcare facilities and insurances)
      - 6y ago
sumedh 6y ago
> Housing and Internet should be free for everyone, just like food/healthcare/education... How about having some realistic expectations?
- southerntofu 6y ago
  Those are pretty realistic expectations. In that list, only Internet is slightly more complex because it requires multinational supply chains. The rest (housing, food, healthcare, education) can and should be free for everyone, ensured by locally-sourced materials. As a society, we definitely can do it. The question is do we want to? Unless, of course, you have some compelling argument explaining why we couldn't have all these nice things despite having an abundance of resources.
anoncake 6y ago
How would you distribute free food without encouraging excessive waste?
- southerntofu 6y ago
  Very good question. Where does waste come from? There's individual waste ("i bought too much cheese") and there's mutualized waste ("the supermarket is throwing away 20-40% of what comes in"). The former is incentivized by individual lifestyles. In a capitalist system, everyone needs their own fridge and food. You need to be pretty rich to employ other people to cook for you (go to the restaurant), or cook for yourself which requires more infrastructure (therefore more pollution). Maybe popular canteens would help? https://dinnerdocument.com/2019/04/30/i-dream-of-canteens/ https://dinnerdocument.com/2019/04/30/i-dream-of-canteens/ About mutualized waste, some loss is due to food traveling incredible lengths to reach supermarkets. Strongly incentivizing local production could help for that. The biggest waste generation machine is competition between supermarkets. All supermarkets need all of their alleys full of food. If supermarkets were a public service (without competition), they wouldn't need to overflow with food that will end up in the trash. If you have never worked in a supermarket, you'll be SHOCKED by the amount of meat and dairy products ending up in the trash every week. Third kind of mutualized trash is due to financial incentives. When markets decide that your product is worthless, you'll just throw it away. The fact that capitalism even makes "negative prices" possible is fucked up. When producers destroy TONS of food/milk because selling it would make them loose even more money, how is that even a thing? So there's plenty of room for improvement on food waste, and all of them have more or less to do with abolishing the capitalist system.

They both suffer from the same problem, of being treated as a private market and not as common/public goods. Housing and Internet should be free for everyone, just like food/healthcare/education...

Dma54rhs 6y ago

Is this really mainstream thinking now in America? None of those things are free in Europe and I've yet to find people promoting these insane ideas here, while at least online I can read about these mysterious things Europeans get free for or have.

southerntofu 6y ago
So is anticapitalism becoming mainstream in the USA? I would say yes, more or less: https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/10/28/poll-sponsored-anti-communists-discovers-70-us-millennials-ready-ditch-capitalism https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/10/28/poll-sponsored-... Also, historically these ideas were pretty common in the USA, with anarchist IWW being the biggest union of its time. And what you call "these insane ideas" is actually following articles the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as approved after the second World War. Do you consider basic human rights to be insane? Also worth noting, most things are not "for free" in Europe. The little rights we have our ancestors fought hard for, and they are being dismantled as we speak in the name of neoliberalism. Not so long ago France had one of the best Education and Health systems of the world, but that ship has sailed because of the desire to privatize everything and sabotage public infrastructure in the name of private profit. See also David Graeber's talk on managerial feudalism and the revolt of the caring classes: https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-11241-from_managerial_feudalism_to_the_revolt_of_the_caring_classes https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-11241-from_managerial_feudalism_...
- sldksk 6y ago
  American communists are responsible for approximately all of the labor protections Americans have left. 40 hour work week, fire exits, minimum wage, child labor act, and the list goes on...
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  Stalin was a co-author of the UN human rights declaration. It's a political document, not some ultimate enlightened truth.
kaba0 6y ago
I don’t think they are mainstream, but education and healthcare is absolutely free in most of Europe, and I think it is not that controversial of a take that everyone has to live somewhere, so some form of social net/not letting arbitrarily increasing rent would be beneficial to society.
- EdwinLarkin 6y ago
  That's such a ridiculous take on it.Have you actually used that "free healthcare in Europe"? It sucks ass. I get better healthcare in South Korea that is both cheaper and more effective than in Germany or Austria.
  - anoncake 6y ago
    If you got healthcare that's cheaper than free, you probably donated a kidney.
  - sldksk 6y ago
    On many accounts, it is better than most paid healthcare in the US and it’s objectively better than no healthcare at all, which is what many US residents are left with. But most importantly even the paid healthcare in Europe depends on the infrastructure and industry upheld by the free healthcare.
  - kaba0 6y ago
    Yes, I live here. Have YOU used it? Some poorer countries in Europe may have worse healthcare, but it usually has more to do with corrupt government not spending enough on it (but instead on fking stadiums...), and the much much better paycheck on the west (that is west Europe) causing massive migration of educated workforce throughout the years. What objective problem can you bring up? Wait time is propaganda, not worse than in the US. Private healthcare is simply immoral and barbaric, a constant, externally determined demand for something should not be exploited. And one nation level insurance is the cheapest and best way for everyone (other than the billionaires owning private healthcare facilities and insurances)
    - 6y ago

sumedh 6y ago

> Housing and Internet should be free for everyone, just like food/healthcare/education... How about having some realistic expectations?

southerntofu 6y ago
Those are pretty realistic expectations. In that list, only Internet is slightly more complex because it requires multinational supply chains. The rest (housing, food, healthcare, education) can and should be free for everyone, ensured by locally-sourced materials. As a society, we definitely can do it. The question is do we want to? Unless, of course, you have some compelling argument explaining why we couldn't have all these nice things despite having an abundance of resources.

anoncake 6y ago

How would you distribute free food without encouraging excessive waste?

southerntofu 6y ago
Very good question. Where does waste come from? There's individual waste ("i bought too much cheese") and there's mutualized waste ("the supermarket is throwing away 20-40% of what comes in"). The former is incentivized by individual lifestyles. In a capitalist system, everyone needs their own fridge and food. You need to be pretty rich to employ other people to cook for you (go to the restaurant), or cook for yourself which requires more infrastructure (therefore more pollution). Maybe popular canteens would help? https://dinnerdocument.com/2019/04/30/i-dream-of-canteens/ https://dinnerdocument.com/2019/04/30/i-dream-of-canteens/ About mutualized waste, some loss is due to food traveling incredible lengths to reach supermarkets. Strongly incentivizing local production could help for that. The biggest waste generation machine is competition between supermarkets. All supermarkets need all of their alleys full of food. If supermarkets were a public service (without competition), they wouldn't need to overflow with food that will end up in the trash. If you have never worked in a supermarket, you'll be SHOCKED by the amount of meat and dairy products ending up in the trash every week. Third kind of mutualized trash is due to financial incentives. When markets decide that your product is worthless, you'll just throw it away. The fact that capitalism even makes "negative prices" possible is fucked up. When producers destroy TONS of food/milk because selling it would make them loose even more money, how is that even a thing? So there's plenty of room for improvement on food waste, and all of them have more or less to do with abolishing the capitalist system.