5 ms·

Even if I weren't open to letting educated members of society earn a legal green card, I think this would've changed my mind. The inability to obtain US citize

Even if I weren't open to letting educated members of society earn a legal green card, I think this would've changed my mind. The inability to obtain US citizenship even though I was attending a consecutively #1 rated program on the continent, at one of the best schools in the country really dimmed my own hopes. I remember wanting to apply for an internship at MIT Lincoln labs for anti-ballistic missile defense, and being crushed when I realized I couldn't.

BadassFractal 15y ago
It's also awful on the permanent residency front. I lived in the US for almost a decade now, graduated from top 5 school, currently a graduate student in n.1 US school in my field, while working at a top firm full-time. Green card application got put on permanent hold for a technicality (same thing for hundreds of my fellow international coworkers), and so it will likely take me anywhere between another 5-10 years to get one. And I'm fully documented up to my ears, I imagine there's even more horseshit for illegals. No prospect of ever leaving my employer unless I'm willing to go back to the other side of the pond...
phillmv 15y ago
Have you tried Canada? We're kind of like the US, but better.
- benihana 15y ago
  I heard Canada is changing it's official slogan: "We're like America, but with moose."
  - phillmv 15y ago
    "We're like America, but with gays and healthcare and poutine and a thirst for hockey only blood can quench."
    - lutorm 15y ago
      a thirst for hockey only blood can quench Yeah, we saw that one in Vancouver recently...
- ojbyrne 15y ago
  As a Canadian living in the US, I think you need to mention the snow.
  - iqster 15y ago
    Indeed it snows :) Funny! But seriously, the cold in Toronto is as bad as New York. Also, programmer salaries aren't exactly the same. A top notch coder in SF Bay area or NYC makes x2-x6 than a Canadian. Apart from money, I felt that there were few hardcore jobs that would improve my skills. Nortel was an exception before it closed down. That said, Canada is a pretty nice place to live. Immigrants aren't expected to assimilate. Rather, society is supposed to be enriched by your diversity. My family immigrated to Canada when I was a teenager and I've always been grateful to the country for accepting us. It's unfortunate that I've had to leave her to pursue educational and professional growth opportunities in the US. Not sure where my future lies ... but I miss Canada dearly.
    - jarek 15y ago
      Once you factor in cost of living, the difference for top notch coders (any coders, really) is going to be less than 2x and nowhere near 6x.
- ebiester 15y ago
  Honestly? Totally rooting for global warming. For your sakes.
- potatolicious 15y ago
  To expand on the point: skilled immigrants in Canada gain permanent residency (aka the equivalent of the green card) immediately upon entry. You can work for anyone, in any field, without restriction. You have health care, education, and all of the benefits of anyone else except the vote. And that only takes three years of continuous residency. Compare with the US: must make the H-1B quota, wait years, apply for Green card, wait even more years (EB-3 is what, 6-7 years at this point?), then get your green card. The entire time you're an indentured slave to your employer who can take advantage of you every which way knowing you're locked in. Barbaric.
  - jgh 15y ago
    Sounds faster to go to canada and become a canadian citizen and then enter the U.S. on TN status :P
    - potatolicious 15y ago
      You just discovered why Microsoft Vancouver exists. It's a giant waiting room for a Canadian passport/TN.
  - BadassFractal 15y ago
    Whoa, what's this thing about gaining permanent residency in Canada if you're skilled? You make it sound too easy. Define skilled?
    - phillmv 15y ago
      Eh, it's not THAT easy. For skilled workers, you're in if belong to a narrow category of professions and have worked for a year in the field[0], or you have a job offer. Otherwise, you need to score enough points[1] on this semi asinine questionnaire. Things that work in your favour: Knowledge of French alongside English, a bachelor's degree, having studied in canada, being 21-49 years old, having lots of work experience, having a spouse with lots of work experience or who is studying or working in Canada, and having immediate family in Canada. Frankly, I think we could do a lot to improve this scenario since there is this perverse catch 22 where a lot of employers (for good and bad reasons) will not heed attention to foreign qualifications claiming you lack "Canadian experience". This results in having engineers and doctors drive cabs for a living which feels... unethical. On the other hand, my personal experience with immigration suggests that a majority of people skirt around the legal pipeline precisely because this system, while somewhat more humane than the US, is still somewhat too onerous. [0] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who.asp [1] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/assess/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/assess/index....
- freshfunk 15y ago
  Better at rioting due to hockey losses! ;D

BadassFractal 15y ago

It's also awful on the permanent residency front. I lived in the US for almost a decade now, graduated from top 5 school, currently a graduate student in n.1 US school in my field, while working at a top firm full-time. Green card application got put on permanent hold for a technicality (same thing for hundreds of my fellow international coworkers), and so it will likely take me anywhere between another 5-10 years to get one. And I'm fully documented up to my ears, I imagine there's even more horseshit for illegals. No prospect of ever leaving my employer unless I'm willing to go back to the other side of the pond...

phillmv 15y ago

Have you tried Canada? We're kind of like the US, but better.

benihana 15y ago
I heard Canada is changing it's official slogan: "We're like America, but with moose."
- phillmv 15y ago
  "We're like America, but with gays and healthcare and poutine and a thirst for hockey only blood can quench."
  - lutorm 15y ago
    a thirst for hockey only blood can quench Yeah, we saw that one in Vancouver recently...
ojbyrne 15y ago
As a Canadian living in the US, I think you need to mention the snow.
- iqster 15y ago
  Indeed it snows :) Funny! But seriously, the cold in Toronto is as bad as New York. Also, programmer salaries aren't exactly the same. A top notch coder in SF Bay area or NYC makes x2-x6 than a Canadian. Apart from money, I felt that there were few hardcore jobs that would improve my skills. Nortel was an exception before it closed down. That said, Canada is a pretty nice place to live. Immigrants aren't expected to assimilate. Rather, society is supposed to be enriched by your diversity. My family immigrated to Canada when I was a teenager and I've always been grateful to the country for accepting us. It's unfortunate that I've had to leave her to pursue educational and professional growth opportunities in the US. Not sure where my future lies ... but I miss Canada dearly.
  - jarek 15y ago
    Once you factor in cost of living, the difference for top notch coders (any coders, really) is going to be less than 2x and nowhere near 6x.
ebiester 15y ago
Honestly? Totally rooting for global warming. For your sakes.
potatolicious 15y ago
To expand on the point: skilled immigrants in Canada gain permanent residency (aka the equivalent of the green card) immediately upon entry. You can work for anyone, in any field, without restriction. You have health care, education, and all of the benefits of anyone else except the vote. And that only takes three years of continuous residency. Compare with the US: must make the H-1B quota, wait years, apply for Green card, wait even more years (EB-3 is what, 6-7 years at this point?), then get your green card. The entire time you're an indentured slave to your employer who can take advantage of you every which way knowing you're locked in. Barbaric.
- jgh 15y ago
  Sounds faster to go to canada and become a canadian citizen and then enter the U.S. on TN status :P
  - potatolicious 15y ago
    You just discovered why Microsoft Vancouver exists. It's a giant waiting room for a Canadian passport/TN.
- BadassFractal 15y ago
  Whoa, what's this thing about gaining permanent residency in Canada if you're skilled? You make it sound too easy. Define skilled?
  - phillmv 15y ago
    Eh, it's not THAT easy. For skilled workers, you're in if belong to a narrow category of professions and have worked for a year in the field[0], or you have a job offer. Otherwise, you need to score enough points[1] on this semi asinine questionnaire. Things that work in your favour: Knowledge of French alongside English, a bachelor's degree, having studied in canada, being 21-49 years old, having lots of work experience, having a spouse with lots of work experience or who is studying or working in Canada, and having immediate family in Canada. Frankly, I think we could do a lot to improve this scenario since there is this perverse catch 22 where a lot of employers (for good and bad reasons) will not heed attention to foreign qualifications claiming you lack "Canadian experience". This results in having engineers and doctors drive cabs for a living which feels... unethical. On the other hand, my personal experience with immigration suggests that a majority of people skirt around the legal pipeline precisely because this system, while somewhat more humane than the US, is still somewhat too onerous. [0] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who.asp [1] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/assess/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/assess/index....
freshfunk 15y ago
Better at rioting due to hockey losses! ;D