8 ms·

This reminds me of a story back around that time about a guy who was, like, employee 200 at Amazon. He goes to the can, and sees a vestment sheet for the early

This reminds me of a story back around that time about a guy who was, like, employee 200 at Amazon. He goes to the can, and sees a vestment sheet for the early employees, and realizes that he’s been hired just after people were getting stock grants. Just just prior to him are shortly to become millionaires, and he’s sitting there with a regular job. He quit because of the inequity, and did a tour with this story as a “comic,” but it was just bitter. (I can never find this story any more.) Anyway, the point is that he has a great job at a booming company, with nothing but bright days ahead, and he can’t enjoy it because he knows other people are getting a lot more. I mean, I get it, but everyone can point to someone who has made a better deal for themselves. It doesn’t mean you have to despise the deal you got. I know I can’t make that kind of money because I know I don’t have the personality or family situation to make that kind of deal. And that’s ok. I can’t complain. I do alright.

alienthrowaway 6y ago
There is something buried deeply in our minds that recoils at being treated unfairly. I have a good job, the pay is decent, the work is interesting - but I'm in the process of looking for a different job because I didn't get a promotion. Some junior members on my team did get them though, and it feels unfair (I absolutely have no idea if they don't deserve it, and I like them as team mates). However, I had previously talked to my about the promotion, set the targets, and went above and beyond to meet those ambitious targets. I've introspected a bit, and I admit it's weird reaction - nothing changed about my job, except knowing my colleagues were being recognized and getting something I am not. The perverse thing is, if no one got a promotion, I wouldn't be this pissed.
- ickelbawd 6y ago
  Wow. I had a similar experience last Monday. A coworker I like personally, but who I consider myself more senior than, was given an important role on the team that I had been working towards and discussing with my manager. I felt this incredible, irrational anger as soon as it was announced and it stuck with me for days. I went to bed angry and woke up angry. It really surprised me how visceral and uncontrollable my reaction felt. It consumed my thoughts. I’m halfway through a four day weekend to disconnect and try to reset myself mentally because while I still think it was unfair, I can’t actively feel this way and still function well at work. Time will tell if this weekend was long enough...
  - _nalply 6y ago
    I experienced the same thing more than ten years ago. My coworker and I we were even of the same CS class, and my grades were better than his and I worked two years longer than him in the company but yet he turned out to become my boss. In my case it seems to be simple to explain why. Have a look at my profile and perhaps you discover the probable cause. Now I stopped working as an employee and I look forward to never return at slaving away.
- ascorbic 6y ago
  There's a famous psychological experiment where people are split into pairs and given a pot of cash to share. One person decides how it should be apportioned, and the other decides whether to accept that share. If they reject it, neither person receives any money. The logical decision is to always accept the money, because a small amount is still better than nothing. However people don't do that. At a certain point, the desire to punish unfairness outweighs the desire for the money, and people will reject money in order to prevent the unfair person getting anything either.
  - faeyanpiraat 6y ago
    Is there a task beforehand where participants could potentially do more/less perceived work than their pairs?
  - watwut 6y ago
    On repeated version of game, it pays off to reject unequal deal. So that the other person is incentivized to offer more. So apparently, the desire to punish feeling is optimizing our behavior for repeated game. Pls, if we are competing in some sense, say socially, then it is better for you to prevent advancement of person you are competing with.
  - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
    > The logical decision is to always accept the money, because a small amount is still better than nothing This is a moral decision for me, not a logical one. Someone trying to make you accept an unequal portion is 100% trying to take advantage of you. The only situation I would accept an unequal share is if the portion was significant enough for the fact that it's unequal to not matter.
    - sneak 6y ago
      Morally you are entitled to zero, so it's still a good deal to take whatever you are offered. It's not like you both did an equal amount of work. You're not being taken advantage of.
- sgtnoodle 6y ago
  One of the companies I worked at previously made a big deal about employee -driven performance review / promo packets every year. Everyone's title had a level like a role playing game. There was also a culture of compensation transparency among coworkers. I thought it was all quite toxic, leading to a lot of very well compensated people stressing out and complaining. At its worst, it lead to instances of passive aggression and depression across many teams. My current company encourages regular direct feedback, mostly lacks titles internally, and there's a culture of compensation opacity among coworkers. Folk don't talk about money outside topics of general interest, and managers and HR are responsible for periodically reviewing and adjusting compensation for fairness. I haven't had to worry about or discuss money professionally in years, other than to get called into a short meeting to be pleasantly surprised by an adjustment. There's no bonuses other than the occasional verbal praise I receive from appreciative coworkers and management, and I think that's worth more than incrementally more money. One time I did offer to pay out cash to any coworkers that reduced network traffic on a particularly over-utilized CAN bus, at a bounty of $0.10/Kbps. One sucker, er, respected coworker fell for it. Best $20 I ever spent!
noisy_boy 6y ago
My view is: everything is comparative but if you make everything a comparison, boy you are in for a world of hurt. Life is mostly unfair so better treat the good times like the bonus that they are.
- sofal 6y ago
  And my view is: if you're not paying attention to what is going on around you, you will be taken advantage of. There is a balance here.
  - noisy_boy 6y ago
    Indeed - thats why I used the word "everything".
twodave 6y ago
There's literally a biblical parable about this (though sort of in reverse). I'll paraphrase it (it's from Matthew Ch 20): A man goes out in the morning to find workers for his vineyard, promising them each denarius for the day. Around lunch he goes to find more workers. During the afternoon, he goes to find even more workers. At the end of the day the man pays everyone, starting with those who arrived during the afternoon. To these folks he gives a denarius. The workers who had arrived earlier see this and think they're about to get a bonus, only to then also receive a denarius apiece. The main purpose of the parable is to describe that everybody who makes it to Heaven is there on equal terms. But there's another truth to it that the article also describes--if you agreed to work for a wage and then receive that wage, can it really be called unfair?
- froh 6y ago
  the parable leverages our feelings of injustice tickled by the very relatable narrative to carry one point home, the Heavens part. the other, secular reading, has a heavy taste of prosperity gospel, putting employers into God's boots to justify blatant injustice and better margins, fka profits. it is and remains unfair to offer different employees different wages for the same work. please don't use the gospel to justify injustice. btw,bI'm amazed there are employee owned companies. For example whenever there is another round of Huawei bashing I remind myself that Huawei is fully employee owned with no majority shareholders. https://www.huawei.com/en/facts/question-answer/who-owns-huawei#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20Huawei%20is%20owned,1.14%25%20stake%20in%20the%20company https://www.huawei.com/en/facts/question-answer/who-owns-hua....
  - ornornor 6y ago
    That’s very surprising, I didn’t know that about Huawei and didn’t expect it at all! 100% with you on the parable.
  - barry-cotter 6y ago
    > remind myself that Huawei is fully employee owned with no majority shareholders You know it’s a Chinese company right? That employees have as much control over it as they do companies that are formally state owned enterprises, none? That it’s run by the internal CCP committee?
neworbit 6y ago
That's Mike Daisey, he did a tour called "Doing Time At Amazon.com"
- TheRealDunkirk 6y ago
  Thank you for scratching that mental itch. I see his book(s) are available... on Amazon.
znpy 6y ago
> Anyway, the point is that he has a great job at a booming > company, with nothing but bright days ahead, and he can’t > enjoy it because he knows other people are getting a lot > more. That's only partially true. You might have just realized that you're worth more, and that you could do about the same job at a different company and get better remuneration. I can offer an anecdotal example: back in my first job I had reached quite a happy point. I was able to do my job without much problems, I was competent for my tasks, and my compensation was okay-ish. Not great, but I could sustain myself and get me something nice every now and then. Then I started seeing people as competent as me leave and get waaaay better remuneration, doing jobs maybe different but still interesting/engaging, still rewarding. Anyway, I stayed there for about two more years, then I left. My next job was a ton of fun, got competent at it again after some initial ramp-up, and was making waaay more than my first job.
valuearb 6y ago
Mike Daisey, the guy who got caught lying about conditions at Apple factories, so not sure how much I believe the story about finding a vestment sheet.

alienthrowaway 6y ago

There is something buried deeply in our minds that recoils at being treated unfairly. I have a good job, the pay is decent, the work is interesting - but I'm in the process of looking for a different job because I didn't get a promotion. Some junior members on my team did get them though, and it feels unfair (I absolutely have no idea if they don't deserve it, and I like them as team mates). However, I had previously talked to my about the promotion, set the targets, and went above and beyond to meet those ambitious targets. I've introspected a bit, and I admit it's weird reaction - nothing changed about my job, except knowing my colleagues were being recognized and getting something I am not. The perverse thing is, if no one got a promotion, I wouldn't be this pissed.

ickelbawd 6y ago
Wow. I had a similar experience last Monday. A coworker I like personally, but who I consider myself more senior than, was given an important role on the team that I had been working towards and discussing with my manager. I felt this incredible, irrational anger as soon as it was announced and it stuck with me for days. I went to bed angry and woke up angry. It really surprised me how visceral and uncontrollable my reaction felt. It consumed my thoughts. I’m halfway through a four day weekend to disconnect and try to reset myself mentally because while I still think it was unfair, I can’t actively feel this way and still function well at work. Time will tell if this weekend was long enough...
- _nalply 6y ago
  I experienced the same thing more than ten years ago. My coworker and I we were even of the same CS class, and my grades were better than his and I worked two years longer than him in the company but yet he turned out to become my boss. In my case it seems to be simple to explain why. Have a look at my profile and perhaps you discover the probable cause. Now I stopped working as an employee and I look forward to never return at slaving away.
ascorbic 6y ago
There's a famous psychological experiment where people are split into pairs and given a pot of cash to share. One person decides how it should be apportioned, and the other decides whether to accept that share. If they reject it, neither person receives any money. The logical decision is to always accept the money, because a small amount is still better than nothing. However people don't do that. At a certain point, the desire to punish unfairness outweighs the desire for the money, and people will reject money in order to prevent the unfair person getting anything either.
- faeyanpiraat 6y ago
  Is there a task beforehand where participants could potentially do more/less perceived work than their pairs?
- watwut 6y ago
  On repeated version of game, it pays off to reject unequal deal. So that the other person is incentivized to offer more. So apparently, the desire to punish feeling is optimizing our behavior for repeated game. Pls, if we are competing in some sense, say socially, then it is better for you to prevent advancement of person you are competing with.
- ZephyrBlu 6y ago
  > The logical decision is to always accept the money, because a small amount is still better than nothing This is a moral decision for me, not a logical one. Someone trying to make you accept an unequal portion is 100% trying to take advantage of you. The only situation I would accept an unequal share is if the portion was significant enough for the fact that it's unequal to not matter.
  - sneak 6y ago
    Morally you are entitled to zero, so it's still a good deal to take whatever you are offered. It's not like you both did an equal amount of work. You're not being taken advantage of.
sgtnoodle 6y ago
One of the companies I worked at previously made a big deal about employee -driven performance review / promo packets every year. Everyone's title had a level like a role playing game. There was also a culture of compensation transparency among coworkers. I thought it was all quite toxic, leading to a lot of very well compensated people stressing out and complaining. At its worst, it lead to instances of passive aggression and depression across many teams. My current company encourages regular direct feedback, mostly lacks titles internally, and there's a culture of compensation opacity among coworkers. Folk don't talk about money outside topics of general interest, and managers and HR are responsible for periodically reviewing and adjusting compensation for fairness. I haven't had to worry about or discuss money professionally in years, other than to get called into a short meeting to be pleasantly surprised by an adjustment. There's no bonuses other than the occasional verbal praise I receive from appreciative coworkers and management, and I think that's worth more than incrementally more money. One time I did offer to pay out cash to any coworkers that reduced network traffic on a particularly over-utilized CAN bus, at a bounty of $0.10/Kbps. One sucker, er, respected coworker fell for it. Best $20 I ever spent!

noisy_boy 6y ago

My view is: everything is comparative but if you make everything a comparison, boy you are in for a world of hurt. Life is mostly unfair so better treat the good times like the bonus that they are.

sofal 6y ago
And my view is: if you're not paying attention to what is going on around you, you will be taken advantage of. There is a balance here.
- noisy_boy 6y ago
  Indeed - thats why I used the word "everything".

twodave 6y ago

There's literally a biblical parable about this (though sort of in reverse). I'll paraphrase it (it's from Matthew Ch 20): A man goes out in the morning to find workers for his vineyard, promising them each denarius for the day. Around lunch he goes to find more workers. During the afternoon, he goes to find even more workers. At the end of the day the man pays everyone, starting with those who arrived during the afternoon. To these folks he gives a denarius. The workers who had arrived earlier see this and think they're about to get a bonus, only to then also receive a denarius apiece. The main purpose of the parable is to describe that everybody who makes it to Heaven is there on equal terms. But there's another truth to it that the article also describes--if you agreed to work for a wage and then receive that wage, can it really be called unfair?

froh 6y ago
the parable leverages our feelings of injustice tickled by the very relatable narrative to carry one point home, the Heavens part. the other, secular reading, has a heavy taste of prosperity gospel, putting employers into God's boots to justify blatant injustice and better margins, fka profits. it is and remains unfair to offer different employees different wages for the same work. please don't use the gospel to justify injustice. btw,bI'm amazed there are employee owned companies. For example whenever there is another round of Huawei bashing I remind myself that Huawei is fully employee owned with no majority shareholders. https://www.huawei.com/en/facts/question-answer/who-owns-huawei#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20Huawei%20is%20owned,1.14%25%20stake%20in%20the%20company https://www.huawei.com/en/facts/question-answer/who-owns-hua....
- ornornor 6y ago
  That’s very surprising, I didn’t know that about Huawei and didn’t expect it at all! 100% with you on the parable.
- barry-cotter 6y ago
  > remind myself that Huawei is fully employee owned with no majority shareholders You know it’s a Chinese company right? That employees have as much control over it as they do companies that are formally state owned enterprises, none? That it’s run by the internal CCP committee?

neworbit 6y ago

That's Mike Daisey, he did a tour called "Doing Time At Amazon.com"

TheRealDunkirk 6y ago
Thank you for scratching that mental itch. I see his book(s) are available... on Amazon.

znpy 6y ago

> Anyway, the point is that he has a great job at a booming > company, with nothing but bright days ahead, and he can’t > enjoy it because he knows other people are getting a lot > more. That's only partially true. You might have just realized that you're worth more, and that you could do about the same job at a different company and get better remuneration. I can offer an anecdotal example: back in my first job I had reached quite a happy point. I was able to do my job without much problems, I was competent for my tasks, and my compensation was okay-ish. Not great, but I could sustain myself and get me something nice every now and then. Then I started seeing people as competent as me leave and get waaaay better remuneration, doing jobs maybe different but still interesting/engaging, still rewarding. Anyway, I stayed there for about two more years, then I left. My next job was a ton of fun, got competent at it again after some initial ramp-up, and was making waaay more than my first job.

valuearb 6y ago

Mike Daisey, the guy who got caught lying about conditions at Apple factories, so not sure how much I believe the story about finding a vestment sheet.