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Companies should contribute to society, they benefit off the public and legal infrastructure.

by o_p 5y ago

kylecazar 5y ago
I think that's why parent advocated for closing the loopholes. And I tend to agree. Would be great if we could just rely on companies to pay as much tax as they can to 'contribute', but why leave it to the honor system? Close the loopholes and codify it. It's the only sustainable, efficient way.
- ergocoder 5y ago
  I cannot even rely on myself paying more tax than I'm legally required to. I'm sure you don't intentionally over pay your tax either. If you want more tax, just codify it.
goldenchrome 5y ago
They should, but companies tend towards amorality the larger they become. I think you're right to care about the issue, but we should forget about using shame as a tactic. We think of companies as institutions comprised of people who can be reasoned with, but it's more effective to think of companies as a bacterial growth on a petri dish named Earth. If you want a large company to pay taxes you have to make well-defined laws and enforce them.
- o_p 5y ago
  Intent is a part of the law, not only actions. If you use an exploit in computer systems to get unauthorized access you cant just say "well, thats how its designed, write better programs next time". Retroactive taxes should apply here, what was written in the law was wrong with the actual intent of the lawmaker, we shouldnt encourage this stupid cat and mouse games, just pay your taxes.
  - goldenchrome 5y ago
    I agree with your ideology but you're describing how the world should be whereas I'm describing how the world is [0]. If you want to change the world, you have to accept how the world is. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwuckTkE7T4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwuckTkE7T4
splintercell 5y ago
Companies don't make money by performing activities which are outside the society. A trash company makes money but collecting trash, a car company makes money by providing cars to people, a law firm makes money by providing legal representation to people. You're acting like society and its infrastructure is a teat which different companies milk and other people out of their own generosity fill up, so its only fair that they give something back to the society, when this is now how it works. This infrastructure isn't created so that the CEOs can get rich, it is created so that they can run companies which provide value to the people (and not so that they can pay taxes which, as claimed, is the only utility a company has).
- o_p 5y ago
  You or someone pay to companies with your money for the value they provide. However companies dont pay for the services goverment give them, like the security of police enforcement and the roads and public transport for their workers to come to work, or the justice system to ensure their rights are protected. In fact, without the goverment the business probably couldnt even be a ble to operate.
  - sebmellen 5y ago
    In the case of Google, look at the internet. All the base-level physical infrastructure that allows Google to operate is paid for with taxpayer dollars.
    - xyzzyz 5y ago
      This is false. Some of it is, maybe even more than half, but to say “all” is simply blatantly untrue.
  - splintercell 5y ago
    > the justice system to ensure their rights are protected The only way a corporation can protect its property from the whims of the majority is with the help of lobbyist. In fact, US is one of the few countries where the corporations are allowed to formally influence the politicians (and just see how much people who just want to take it all from them in the name of 'fair share' hate this). In other countries, this system is informal, so in Mexico, the corporations simply have to influence the politicians in an opaque way.
shadowgovt 5y ago
What if companies contribute best to society by following the law? There's at least one major party in the US that wouldn't see it as particularly ethical for companies to pay more than what the law requires. One Presidential candidate for that party, when challenged on using every loophole allowed to him, quipped he does it "because I'm smart." Then he was elected President, and his administration oversaw the spending of tax dollars Congress authorized it.
paconbork 5y ago
They do. They pay employees money
ergocoder 5y ago
This is a different point, which is worth its own debate. My point is: if you want them to not use loophole, then codify it. This is like your company doesn't write what your job's responsibility is.

Companies should contribute to society, they benefit off the public and legal infrastructure.

by o_p 5y ago

Companies should contribute to society, they benefit off the public and legal infrastructure.

I think that's why parent advocated for closing the loopholes. And I tend to agree. Would be great if we could just rely on companies to pay as much tax as they can to 'contribute', but why leave it to the honor system? Close the loopholes and codify it. It's the only sustainable, efficient way.

ergocoder 5y ago
I cannot even rely on myself paying more tax than I'm legally required to. I'm sure you don't intentionally over pay your tax either. If you want more tax, just codify it.

goldenchrome 5y ago

They should, but companies tend towards amorality the larger they become. I think you're right to care about the issue, but we should forget about using shame as a tactic. We think of companies as institutions comprised of people who can be reasoned with, but it's more effective to think of companies as a bacterial growth on a petri dish named Earth. If you want a large company to pay taxes you have to make well-defined laws and enforce them.

o_p 5y ago
Intent is a part of the law, not only actions. If you use an exploit in computer systems to get unauthorized access you cant just say "well, thats how its designed, write better programs next time". Retroactive taxes should apply here, what was written in the law was wrong with the actual intent of the lawmaker, we shouldnt encourage this stupid cat and mouse games, just pay your taxes.
- goldenchrome 5y ago
  I agree with your ideology but you're describing how the world should be whereas I'm describing how the world is [0]. If you want to change the world, you have to accept how the world is. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwuckTkE7T4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwuckTkE7T4

splintercell 5y ago

Companies don't make money by performing activities which are outside the society. A trash company makes money but collecting trash, a car company makes money by providing cars to people, a law firm makes money by providing legal representation to people. You're acting like society and its infrastructure is a teat which different companies milk and other people out of their own generosity fill up, so its only fair that they give something back to the society, when this is now how it works. This infrastructure isn't created so that the CEOs can get rich, it is created so that they can run companies which provide value to the people (and not so that they can pay taxes which, as claimed, is the only utility a company has).

o_p 5y ago
You or someone pay to companies with your money for the value they provide. However companies dont pay for the services goverment give them, like the security of police enforcement and the roads and public transport for their workers to come to work, or the justice system to ensure their rights are protected. In fact, without the goverment the business probably couldnt even be a ble to operate.
- sebmellen 5y ago
  In the case of Google, look at the internet. All the base-level physical infrastructure that allows Google to operate is paid for with taxpayer dollars.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    This is false. Some of it is, maybe even more than half, but to say “all” is simply blatantly untrue.
- splintercell 5y ago
  > the justice system to ensure their rights are protected The only way a corporation can protect its property from the whims of the majority is with the help of lobbyist. In fact, US is one of the few countries where the corporations are allowed to formally influence the politicians (and just see how much people who just want to take it all from them in the name of 'fair share' hate this). In other countries, this system is informal, so in Mexico, the corporations simply have to influence the politicians in an opaque way.

shadowgovt 5y ago

What if companies contribute best to society by following the law? There's at least one major party in the US that wouldn't see it as particularly ethical for companies to pay more than what the law requires. One Presidential candidate for that party, when challenged on using every loophole allowed to him, quipped he does it "because I'm smart." Then he was elected President, and his administration oversaw the spending of tax dollars Congress authorized it.

paconbork 5y ago

They do. They pay employees money

ergocoder 5y ago

This is a different point, which is worth its own debate. My point is: if you want them to not use loophole, then codify it. This is like your company doesn't write what your job's responsibility is.