5 ms·

If application developers actually use MSI(X) instead of Nullsoft/InstallShield/Inno/random homegrown EXE installer that spews stuff all over the FS. I've been

by easton 6y ago

If application developers actually use MSI(X) instead of Nullsoft/InstallShield/Inno/random homegrown EXE installer that spews stuff all over the FS. I've been contributing a lot to the winget repo, and well over half of the applications (including Microsoft(!) software, including Office, Visual Studio, Teams, and VSCode) do not come in a MSI. It's been a gigantic annoyance for the people at Microsoft as they are trying to figure out how to do upgrades/uninstalls without the data you'd usually get from a deb or whatever.

alkonaut 6y ago
Don't some of those help build msi packages? I thought at least InstallShield did.
- EvanAnderson 6y ago
  InstallShield can, but they're not particularly nice MSIs. I remember an old Symantec Antivirus MSI (2005-2006 timeframe) that used InstallShield's "ISScript" which ended up not being capable of being uninstalled in an automated manner. It was a pain. Search-engining those keywords today shows me that ISScript-related problems persist.
EvanAnderson 6y ago
As a Windows sysadmin I pine for developers to use MSI. Having applications managed by the Windows Installer makes automated installation, removal, and repair so easy. MSI has its warts, to be sure, but "clean" MSIs (that don't rely on lots of custom actions, embed binaries that the just execute, etc) are a joy to work with. How well a software developer / "manufacturer" deals with "setup" in the Windows ecosystem has almost always been a proxy for overall software quality in my experience. When "setup" is left as an afterthought I can usually expect other corners have been cut. When I see a custom binary running an installation I start thinking "brown M&M's".
- wvenable 6y ago
  As someone who dabbles in Windows desktop development, I still don't know the best way to even make an MSI. Some of the tools from Microsoft are usable but they all seem to be obsolete.
  - EvanAnderson 6y ago
    The WiX toolset[1] is what I use. I've never used the Visual Studio extensions for WiX. I do everything with a plain ol' text editor. [1] https://wixtoolset.org/ https://wixtoolset.org/
    - for_xyz 6y ago
      If you start from scratch, I'd suggest to use MSIX [0] instead. It makes auto update trivial to implement with PackageManager.UpdatePackage(url_to_your_msix)[1] or plain execute via "ms-appinstaller:?source=url_to_your_msix". It'll do diffs properly and you also get package reflection for free via WinRT apis (such as where app is installed, appdata location, app version, etc). [0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/msix/overview https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/msix/overview [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/uwp/api/windows.management.deployment.packagemanager.updatepackageasync?view=winrt-19041 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/uwp/api/windows.management....
      - wvenable 6y ago
        Assuming I'm not building a UWP app, how do I build an MSIX. The only thing I found was the MSIX packaging tool and the description is this: "You can run your desktop application installers through this tool and obtain an MSIX package that you can install on your machine or upload to the Microsoft Store. " Gross.
      - EvanAnderson 6y ago
        I need to look into MSIX. MSI has been handling my needs for awhile now but I hear MSIX is really nice. Thanks for the nudge to look in that direction.
  - ptx 6y ago
spaetzleesser 6y ago
“It's been a gigantic annoyance for the people at Microsoft” Maybe they should provide better tools. Last I tried to deal with MSI I quickly went back to NSIS and got it done in a fraction of the time.
- sixothree 6y ago
  The tools in Visual Studio definitely feel clunky and dated.
- EvanAnderson 6y ago
  I use the WiX toolset[1] to build MSI files. I can't comment on the learning curve, though. I've been using WiX for far too long to remember what learning it was like. I find MSI files and Windows Installer itself immensely valuable, so I can't imagine using anything that doesn't generate MSI files. [1] https://wixtoolset.org/ https://wixtoolset.org/
  - Varriount 6y ago
    When I used WiX, I found it very... clunky? Everything in XML, lots of attributes to fill out, etc. And, at least when I was trying it out, the generated MSIs didn't appear to have any sort of GUI (or so I read. I don't believe I ever got to the point of generating an MSI). I will say though, I remember the documentation being helpful and fairly straightforward, if a tad large (but that's what you get with a tool that's supposed to solve a complex problem).
merb 6y ago
msix is truly a good format, but it has some limitations. it's hard to have external dependencies and you NEED a certificate.

by easton 6y ago

alkonaut 6y ago

Don't some of those help build msi packages? I thought at least InstallShield did.

EvanAnderson 6y ago
InstallShield can, but they're not particularly nice MSIs. I remember an old Symantec Antivirus MSI (2005-2006 timeframe) that used InstallShield's "ISScript" which ended up not being capable of being uninstalled in an automated manner. It was a pain. Search-engining those keywords today shows me that ISScript-related problems persist.

EvanAnderson 6y ago

As a Windows sysadmin I pine for developers to use MSI. Having applications managed by the Windows Installer makes automated installation, removal, and repair so easy. MSI has its warts, to be sure, but "clean" MSIs (that don't rely on lots of custom actions, embed binaries that the just execute, etc) are a joy to work with. How well a software developer / "manufacturer" deals with "setup" in the Windows ecosystem has almost always been a proxy for overall software quality in my experience. When "setup" is left as an afterthought I can usually expect other corners have been cut. When I see a custom binary running an installation I start thinking "brown M&M's".

wvenable 6y ago
As someone who dabbles in Windows desktop development, I still don't know the best way to even make an MSI. Some of the tools from Microsoft are usable but they all seem to be obsolete.
- EvanAnderson 6y ago
  The WiX toolset[1] is what I use. I've never used the Visual Studio extensions for WiX. I do everything with a plain ol' text editor. [1] https://wixtoolset.org/ https://wixtoolset.org/
  - for_xyz 6y ago
    If you start from scratch, I'd suggest to use MSIX [0] instead. It makes auto update trivial to implement with PackageManager.UpdatePackage(url_to_your_msix)[1] or plain execute via "ms-appinstaller:?source=url_to_your_msix". It'll do diffs properly and you also get package reflection for free via WinRT apis (such as where app is installed, appdata location, app version, etc). [0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/msix/overview https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/msix/overview [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/uwp/api/windows.management.deployment.packagemanager.updatepackageasync?view=winrt-19041 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/uwp/api/windows.management....
    - wvenable 6y ago
      Assuming I'm not building a UWP app, how do I build an MSIX. The only thing I found was the MSIX packaging tool and the description is this: "You can run your desktop application installers through this tool and obtain an MSIX package that you can install on your machine or upload to the Microsoft Store. " Gross.
    - EvanAnderson 6y ago
      I need to look into MSIX. MSI has been handling my needs for awhile now but I hear MSIX is really nice. Thanks for the nudge to look in that direction.
- ptx 6y ago

spaetzleesser 6y ago

“It's been a gigantic annoyance for the people at Microsoft” Maybe they should provide better tools. Last I tried to deal with MSI I quickly went back to NSIS and got it done in a fraction of the time.

sixothree 6y ago
The tools in Visual Studio definitely feel clunky and dated.
EvanAnderson 6y ago
I use the WiX toolset[1] to build MSI files. I can't comment on the learning curve, though. I've been using WiX for far too long to remember what learning it was like. I find MSI files and Windows Installer itself immensely valuable, so I can't imagine using anything that doesn't generate MSI files. [1] https://wixtoolset.org/ https://wixtoolset.org/
- Varriount 6y ago
  When I used WiX, I found it very... clunky? Everything in XML, lots of attributes to fill out, etc. And, at least when I was trying it out, the generated MSIs didn't appear to have any sort of GUI (or so I read. I don't believe I ever got to the point of generating an MSI). I will say though, I remember the documentation being helpful and fairly straightforward, if a tad large (but that's what you get with a tool that's supposed to solve a complex problem).

merb 6y ago

msix is truly a good format, but it has some limitations. it's hard to have external dependencies and you NEED a certificate.