3 ms·

Maybe because generally men have a lot of trouble identifying their self worth in society, maybe because few people are actually that sympathetic to men and the

by Guthur 6y ago

Maybe because generally men have a lot of trouble identifying their self worth in society, maybe because few people are actually that sympathetic to men and their struggle to find meaningful fulfillment within their lives. Every struggle is seen as a negative, some "toxic" side of masculinity that needs to be eradicated rather than embraced and understood. We are positively hostile to it. And somewhat strangely we also attack femininity, though in a less openly hostile manner, more killed with compassion. We seem to feel sorry for outward femininity which appears to be having the effect of pushing women towards a more masculine outlook. I feel we no longer adore femininity like we once did. Some may argue that this is all for the best, and that we need to push us all to some more less defined state, but I'm not so sure that the cost in diversity is worth it.

kingsuper20 6y ago
This brings to mind Ted Kaczynski's manifesto in terms of the need for achievable, non-trivial goals and the inability of so-called 'surrogate' goals to really satisfy that need.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  I love when people reference Kaczynski's work in serious discussions like this. Ted Kaczynski the domestic terrorist and murderer was not a person to be admired, but Ted Kaczynski the anarcho-primitivist philosopher is one of the most underrated and important intellectuals of the late 20th century. There's an awful lot packed into his manifesto, and I wish more people could see past his crimes in order to take that in. BTW, I found out he's updated the manifesto, and that it, along with some other of his works, was published in an anthology in 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski#Other_works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski#Other_works
msrenee 6y ago
I've definitely had my femininity attacked in an openly hostile manner. Often. When I was in junior high and high school, I thought women were the lesser sex and eschewed girly hobbies and clothing in favor of more masculine things. No dresses, no makeup, I cooked in order to eat, nothing fancy. I hung out with the guys and played video games. It wasn't until the last 5 years or so that I realized I could wear skirts out shopping and work a blue collar job during the week. I know masculinity is under attack in many circles, but it's quite the claim to say that femininity is less so.
- Guthur 6y ago
  I of course could have a selection bias being male myself, and I mean not to diminish the attack on femininity. It's unfortunate that this all becomes a little adversarial across gender divides, especially considering how beneficial I think cross gender relationships generally are. Indeed, I do loathe the lose of more femininity in life and media. I feel quite often now in media a "strong female lead" is essentially changing the pronoun of what once would have been a male character, in my opinion this is lazy and disingenuous to strong femininity.
  - msrenee 6y ago
    Sorry if I came at you a little aggressively there. I'm still getting used to the fact that this isn't reddit and just assumed you were one of those guys who thinks that women are handed everything in life and men are the real victims here. What I'd like to see is both men and women being encouraged to show "feminine" traits. What's wrong with demonstrating emotion? Why does it seem like the only emotion men are allowed to have is anger? Why does a man have to be stoic and avoid asking for help when he's in pain? It's not advantageous for anyone. On the flip side, why are women not allowed to stand their ground without being called bitchy? I've had problems a number of times in previous jobs where I'm right about the way something should be done, know I'm right, but no matter how carefully I tried to word my disagreement with what was going on, the men I worked with would shut down and become cold to me. A man making the same suggestion, however, was a leader with good ideas. Thankfully I've found a job where I'm expected to be a little pushy and opinionated and life has been so much easier since. I see where you're coming from and agree that we should be encouraging both masculinity and femininity because both have their value. Being a bit of a "masculine" chick myself though, I don't feel that these traits should be strictly assigned to their traditional genders. There's a lot of value in women who have good ideas defending them rather than trying to keep the peace and there's a lot of value in a man who has high emotional intelligence entering a caretaker role or even just using that sensitivity to keep a team cohesive. I think society has definitely done itself a disservice by expecting women to be more like men and expecting men to be almost a caricature of masculinity.
AussieWog93 6y ago
Men engaging in dick-waving contests isn't new. It pre-dates not just the current era of men feeling obsolete, but the entire history of humans as a species. Every mammal engages in it and we are no different in this regard.
- Guthur 6y ago
  And your point? If this is innately part of us then it's even more callous that it's vilified, or are men not entitled to your sympathy and support?
  - AussieWog93 6y ago
    I read his comment as suggesting that this is a new phenomenon. Reading back, it's fairly ambiguous. I wasn't trying to make a moral imperative statement.

by Guthur 6y ago

kingsuper20 6y ago

This brings to mind Ted Kaczynski's manifesto in terms of the need for achievable, non-trivial goals and the inability of so-called 'surrogate' goals to really satisfy that need.

pmiller2 6y ago
I love when people reference Kaczynski's work in serious discussions like this. Ted Kaczynski the domestic terrorist and murderer was not a person to be admired, but Ted Kaczynski the anarcho-primitivist philosopher is one of the most underrated and important intellectuals of the late 20th century. There's an awful lot packed into his manifesto, and I wish more people could see past his crimes in order to take that in. BTW, I found out he's updated the manifesto, and that it, along with some other of his works, was published in an anthology in 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski#Other_works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski#Other_works

msrenee 6y ago

I've definitely had my femininity attacked in an openly hostile manner. Often. When I was in junior high and high school, I thought women were the lesser sex and eschewed girly hobbies and clothing in favor of more masculine things. No dresses, no makeup, I cooked in order to eat, nothing fancy. I hung out with the guys and played video games. It wasn't until the last 5 years or so that I realized I could wear skirts out shopping and work a blue collar job during the week. I know masculinity is under attack in many circles, but it's quite the claim to say that femininity is less so.

Guthur 6y ago
I of course could have a selection bias being male myself, and I mean not to diminish the attack on femininity. It's unfortunate that this all becomes a little adversarial across gender divides, especially considering how beneficial I think cross gender relationships generally are. Indeed, I do loathe the lose of more femininity in life and media. I feel quite often now in media a "strong female lead" is essentially changing the pronoun of what once would have been a male character, in my opinion this is lazy and disingenuous to strong femininity.
- msrenee 6y ago
  Sorry if I came at you a little aggressively there. I'm still getting used to the fact that this isn't reddit and just assumed you were one of those guys who thinks that women are handed everything in life and men are the real victims here. What I'd like to see is both men and women being encouraged to show "feminine" traits. What's wrong with demonstrating emotion? Why does it seem like the only emotion men are allowed to have is anger? Why does a man have to be stoic and avoid asking for help when he's in pain? It's not advantageous for anyone. On the flip side, why are women not allowed to stand their ground without being called bitchy? I've had problems a number of times in previous jobs where I'm right about the way something should be done, know I'm right, but no matter how carefully I tried to word my disagreement with what was going on, the men I worked with would shut down and become cold to me. A man making the same suggestion, however, was a leader with good ideas. Thankfully I've found a job where I'm expected to be a little pushy and opinionated and life has been so much easier since. I see where you're coming from and agree that we should be encouraging both masculinity and femininity because both have their value. Being a bit of a "masculine" chick myself though, I don't feel that these traits should be strictly assigned to their traditional genders. There's a lot of value in women who have good ideas defending them rather than trying to keep the peace and there's a lot of value in a man who has high emotional intelligence entering a caretaker role or even just using that sensitivity to keep a team cohesive. I think society has definitely done itself a disservice by expecting women to be more like men and expecting men to be almost a caricature of masculinity.

AussieWog93 6y ago

Men engaging in dick-waving contests isn't new. It pre-dates not just the current era of men feeling obsolete, but the entire history of humans as a species. Every mammal engages in it and we are no different in this regard.

Guthur 6y ago
And your point? If this is innately part of us then it's even more callous that it's vilified, or are men not entitled to your sympathy and support?
- AussieWog93 6y ago
  I read his comment as suggesting that this is a new phenomenon. Reading back, it's fairly ambiguous. I wasn't trying to make a moral imperative statement.