4 ms·

I feel like he's missing the point of an ecosystem. It's fine that he only uses a few apps on his phone, and that most other people probably do the same. The

I feel like he's missing the point of an ecosystem. It's fine that he only uses a few apps on his phone, and that most other people probably do the same. The problem is that those "few apps" that most other people use aren't the same "few apps" that he uses.

dhh 15y ago
I've heard that mentioned before, but that's not what I'm seeing. I don't use 10 random apps from the App Store. I use the 10 default apps that come with the phone. Except for Twitter, I consider the 3rd party apps to be completely expendable without materially affecting my enjoyment of the phone. From other "just a few apps on a daily basis" users I've seen, they tend to use the default apps as well. It's not a random cross section of the 200K apps in the App Store.
- Jasber 15y ago
  I think m0nastic is right. I use some of the apps you mention, but also use Rdio and RunKeeper on a daily basis. Those both materially affect the enjoyment of my phone. You certainly have a point, most apps are downloaded then never used. But I think everyone's "few apps" are different with lots of overlap in the apps you mention.
- bradleyland 15y ago
  No argument on the app usage side of things. I think if you drew a giant venn diagram of actual app usage on iOS, it'd look like a giant circle with fuzzy edges, but I think that's missing the point. "The platform" isn't synonymous with apps. The platform is becoming more than what runs on your phone; quite the opposite. Both Google and Apple have built the type of platforms being referred to when casting doubt on the future of MeeGo. The central feature of those platforms, up until about six months ago, was their capability to run applications. This is shifting quickly to the ability to store data in a way that is transparent to the user. Google can, right now, give you seamless, transparent access to documents on a phone, tablet, or desktop computer with no thought or action from the user outside of logging in and browsing to the location of the document. There is no syncing. The same is true for email, calendar, and contacts. When iCloud ships this fall, Apple will be in the same position. What would it take for Nokia to bring MeeGo to that point? This is "the platform" that I can't see Nokia building, and I believe it's going to set the bar for every major player in the space in the coming years.
- achompas 15y ago
  Except for Twitter... This is a variation of m0nitaly's point: I would say "except for Instapaper, Reeder, and Twitter..." and Jasber would say "except for Rdio and RunKeeper..." Even if apps 1-10 are native, I'm hanging onto my iPhone for numbers 11 and 12. The native iOS experience is great, but those two or three non-native apps make it sublime.
  - esrauch 15y ago
    I still think that is really only true of the "geek" crowd. I am pretty sure none of my real life friends that weren't computer science majors have even heard of Instapaper or Reeder or Rdio or RunKeeper. The majority of the "number 11" apps that I use are mainly because either they don't have a workable mobile site (HN) or the mobile website doesn't quite work well enough (reddit, imdb, possibly facebook) but the latter category should be fixed just from phones getting slightly better and certain mobile oriented technologies coming out (like HTML5 offline support). On a side note (not related to current enjoyment of phones) I really think it's not too long until the only things that are necessarily apps use lower hardware features (GPS, compass, camera, Shazam, game graphics), with even some of those possibly moving into the browser (disclosing location to sites already exists on desktop, Google just launched voice search on their desktop search). I also think its a bit disingenuous to put the Twitter app (not an alternate third party Twitter app) in the same category as the others. Right now, a new mobile device would probably have a Twitter app and maybe even a Facebook app as a "native" app. When I got my phone Twitter and Facebook was already installed on it, equally presented alongside all the "native" apps like Googles, Maps, Music, Navigation, etc.
    - wvenable 15y ago
      My boss makes very heavy use of the Starbucks app. My daughter has a billion apps that she uses daily and they aren't all games.
    - achompas 15y ago
      I still think that is really only true of the "geek" crowd. I am pretty sure none of my real life friends that weren't computer science majors have even heard of Instapaper or Reeder or Rdio or RunKeeper. I disagree. I have friends who love Tiny Wings, Angry Birds, Pandora, the DC Next Bus app, SimpleNote, NPR and Fruit Ninja. Most of these are iOS-only, and those that are not have abysmal Android versions. As for Twitter being native: are we talking about the Twitter for iOS app? Because the iOS app is indispensable relative to other options.
- cwe 15y ago
  "except for twitter" which, of course, is becoming a built in capability soon. Even more to your point.
- cageface 15y ago
  Maybe the real value of the app store (for Apple) is that Apple lets third parties take the risk of trying out new ideas and then they co-opt whatever really takes off into the next rev of iOS?
dkarl 15y ago
Exactly. My "few apps" include Kindle, iPeng, Last.fm, Netflix, Yelp, and lately, a Spanish-English dictionary. Also, my "few apps" has changed over time. Two years ago, the only one of those apps I was using a lot was iPeng, and some of the apps I used on a near-daily basis back then have been relegated to my "Attic" folder.
ebiester 15y ago
Yes, but how many of those native apps can be replaced with web apps that already exist? Is 2,000 enough for 80% of people? A few great games, some time wasters, and the basic smartphone functionality? There are always going to be a few developers who take a chance on a new platform, especially if it's developer friendly. And if the 2,000 come and are well received, the rest will follow.
- megablast 15y ago
  Most people do not see Android, Apple and Nokia devices as being any different. They all have big screens, cameras, web, email, etc... They don't understand specs, so they judge on what they know. They do know apps, so this is one way in which they will judge the use of a phone. Now, nobody will use 300,000 apps, but everyone knows 300,000 is better than 100,000, or 2,000.
  - georgemcbay 15y ago
    I completely disagree. Once a platform hits a critical mass of app support (well below 300k, still well below 100k and even below 2k though that's in the right neighborhood), bigger numbers are a net negative, IMO. A hundred thousand more apps is just a ton more garbage you have to wade through to find the very few good ones.
mailarchis 15y ago
I think the point above is there was no need for Nokia to abandon meego as their mobile platform just because it is too late to arrive at the party and doesn't have enough developers building apps for it. As long as it got the core experience right.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  Except Nokia didn't abandon Meego. They're strategy is pretty straightforward and sound. 1) Focus on WP7 for the short/medium term. They'll be the premiere phone on the OS and if it takes off, they'll rake in the cash. 2) In the meanwhile MS gives them a boatload of money. 3) Develop Meego in the background and push it later down the line. The problem, as noted in the leaked stories, is that they didn't have a pipeline of Meego phones that would be ready to go. And while the phone design looks great, the OS looks a bit stale still. So get the OS in good shape, while not hemorraging too much cash.
  - eonwe 15y ago
    I am having problems believing the 3rd point as Nokia is just laying of a lot of Meego-developers. As for current Maemo/Meego-experience, I think not much can actually be said before the phones appear at stores this fall.
    - brmorris 15y ago
      nokia are not laying off any meego developers.
      - stonemetal 15y ago
        http://www.mwkn.net/2011/18/front.html http://www.mwkn.net/2011/18/front.html 4000 mostly from meego and symbian. So yes they actually are laying off at least some meego devs.
dave1010uk 15y ago
I have a N900, which runs Maemo 5 (Fremantle); the N9 runs Maemo 6 (Harmattan)-MeeGo. They both share many system packages and both advertise Qt as thair main development platform. The N900 was not as heavily marketed as the N9 is but there's still thousands of apps for it. I've got over 150 apps installed but the only apps I use daily are the web browser, phone, SMS, email and the terminal (I wouldn't count commandline tools like git, vi, python, wget, ssh "apps"). My point is that even if the N9 has 1% of the number of apps available as iOS then there's still probably loads of apps to cover many people's "few app" choices.
loschorts 15y ago
I agree -- and not just an ecosystem, but competition. Apple's native apps have to be up to snuff because of pressure from the store. Those few apps that rise to the top did so in part from the mechanism of competition.
notatoad 15y ago
>The problem is that those "few apps" that most other people use aren't the same "few apps" that he uses. are they really? having one or two obscure apps might be nice, but there are very, very few people for whom app availability is actually a necessity.
thirdsun 15y ago
Exactly. I guess most people would agree that there are only a handful of apps they really care about and use. As much as I like the efforts made on Meego, Windows mobile 7 and even WebOS (android not so much), as long as there is no alternative to reeder, instacast or kinetic, I'm not likely to switch anything. Of course there are feed readers, podcast management and sports tracking apps on other platforms but the big advantage of iOS is that a lot of developers are really commited to their projects resulting in apps that stand out.

dhh 15y ago

I've heard that mentioned before, but that's not what I'm seeing. I don't use 10 random apps from the App Store. I use the 10 default apps that come with the phone. Except for Twitter, I consider the 3rd party apps to be completely expendable without materially affecting my enjoyment of the phone. From other "just a few apps on a daily basis" users I've seen, they tend to use the default apps as well. It's not a random cross section of the 200K apps in the App Store.

Jasber 15y ago
I think m0nastic is right. I use some of the apps you mention, but also use Rdio and RunKeeper on a daily basis. Those both materially affect the enjoyment of my phone. You certainly have a point, most apps are downloaded then never used. But I think everyone's "few apps" are different with lots of overlap in the apps you mention.
bradleyland 15y ago
No argument on the app usage side of things. I think if you drew a giant venn diagram of actual app usage on iOS, it'd look like a giant circle with fuzzy edges, but I think that's missing the point. "The platform" isn't synonymous with apps. The platform is becoming more than what runs on your phone; quite the opposite. Both Google and Apple have built the type of platforms being referred to when casting doubt on the future of MeeGo. The central feature of those platforms, up until about six months ago, was their capability to run applications. This is shifting quickly to the ability to store data in a way that is transparent to the user. Google can, right now, give you seamless, transparent access to documents on a phone, tablet, or desktop computer with no thought or action from the user outside of logging in and browsing to the location of the document. There is no syncing. The same is true for email, calendar, and contacts. When iCloud ships this fall, Apple will be in the same position. What would it take for Nokia to bring MeeGo to that point? This is "the platform" that I can't see Nokia building, and I believe it's going to set the bar for every major player in the space in the coming years.
achompas 15y ago
Except for Twitter... This is a variation of m0nitaly's point: I would say "except for Instapaper, Reeder, and Twitter..." and Jasber would say "except for Rdio and RunKeeper..." Even if apps 1-10 are native, I'm hanging onto my iPhone for numbers 11 and 12. The native iOS experience is great, but those two or three non-native apps make it sublime.
- esrauch 15y ago
  I still think that is really only true of the "geek" crowd. I am pretty sure none of my real life friends that weren't computer science majors have even heard of Instapaper or Reeder or Rdio or RunKeeper. The majority of the "number 11" apps that I use are mainly because either they don't have a workable mobile site (HN) or the mobile website doesn't quite work well enough (reddit, imdb, possibly facebook) but the latter category should be fixed just from phones getting slightly better and certain mobile oriented technologies coming out (like HTML5 offline support). On a side note (not related to current enjoyment of phones) I really think it's not too long until the only things that are necessarily apps use lower hardware features (GPS, compass, camera, Shazam, game graphics), with even some of those possibly moving into the browser (disclosing location to sites already exists on desktop, Google just launched voice search on their desktop search). I also think its a bit disingenuous to put the Twitter app (not an alternate third party Twitter app) in the same category as the others. Right now, a new mobile device would probably have a Twitter app and maybe even a Facebook app as a "native" app. When I got my phone Twitter and Facebook was already installed on it, equally presented alongside all the "native" apps like Googles, Maps, Music, Navigation, etc.
  - wvenable 15y ago
    My boss makes very heavy use of the Starbucks app. My daughter has a billion apps that she uses daily and they aren't all games.
  - achompas 15y ago
    I still think that is really only true of the "geek" crowd. I am pretty sure none of my real life friends that weren't computer science majors have even heard of Instapaper or Reeder or Rdio or RunKeeper. I disagree. I have friends who love Tiny Wings, Angry Birds, Pandora, the DC Next Bus app, SimpleNote, NPR and Fruit Ninja. Most of these are iOS-only, and those that are not have abysmal Android versions. As for Twitter being native: are we talking about the Twitter for iOS app? Because the iOS app is indispensable relative to other options.
cwe 15y ago
"except for twitter" which, of course, is becoming a built in capability soon. Even more to your point.
cageface 15y ago
Maybe the real value of the app store (for Apple) is that Apple lets third parties take the risk of trying out new ideas and then they co-opt whatever really takes off into the next rev of iOS?

dkarl 15y ago

Exactly. My "few apps" include Kindle, iPeng, Last.fm, Netflix, Yelp, and lately, a Spanish-English dictionary. Also, my "few apps" has changed over time. Two years ago, the only one of those apps I was using a lot was iPeng, and some of the apps I used on a near-daily basis back then have been relegated to my "Attic" folder.

ebiester 15y ago

Yes, but how many of those native apps can be replaced with web apps that already exist? Is 2,000 enough for 80% of people? A few great games, some time wasters, and the basic smartphone functionality? There are always going to be a few developers who take a chance on a new platform, especially if it's developer friendly. And if the 2,000 come and are well received, the rest will follow.

megablast 15y ago
Most people do not see Android, Apple and Nokia devices as being any different. They all have big screens, cameras, web, email, etc... They don't understand specs, so they judge on what they know. They do know apps, so this is one way in which they will judge the use of a phone. Now, nobody will use 300,000 apps, but everyone knows 300,000 is better than 100,000, or 2,000.
- georgemcbay 15y ago
  I completely disagree. Once a platform hits a critical mass of app support (well below 300k, still well below 100k and even below 2k though that's in the right neighborhood), bigger numbers are a net negative, IMO. A hundred thousand more apps is just a ton more garbage you have to wade through to find the very few good ones.

mailarchis 15y ago

I think the point above is there was no need for Nokia to abandon meego as their mobile platform just because it is too late to arrive at the party and doesn't have enough developers building apps for it. As long as it got the core experience right.

kenjackson 15y ago
Except Nokia didn't abandon Meego. They're strategy is pretty straightforward and sound. 1) Focus on WP7 for the short/medium term. They'll be the premiere phone on the OS and if it takes off, they'll rake in the cash. 2) In the meanwhile MS gives them a boatload of money. 3) Develop Meego in the background and push it later down the line. The problem, as noted in the leaked stories, is that they didn't have a pipeline of Meego phones that would be ready to go. And while the phone design looks great, the OS looks a bit stale still. So get the OS in good shape, while not hemorraging too much cash.
- eonwe 15y ago
  I am having problems believing the 3rd point as Nokia is just laying of a lot of Meego-developers. As for current Maemo/Meego-experience, I think not much can actually be said before the phones appear at stores this fall.
  - brmorris 15y ago
    nokia are not laying off any meego developers.
    - stonemetal 15y ago
      http://www.mwkn.net/2011/18/front.html http://www.mwkn.net/2011/18/front.html 4000 mostly from meego and symbian. So yes they actually are laying off at least some meego devs.

dave1010uk 15y ago

I have a N900, which runs Maemo 5 (Fremantle); the N9 runs Maemo 6 (Harmattan)-MeeGo. They both share many system packages and both advertise Qt as thair main development platform. The N900 was not as heavily marketed as the N9 is but there's still thousands of apps for it. I've got over 150 apps installed but the only apps I use daily are the web browser, phone, SMS, email and the terminal (I wouldn't count commandline tools like git, vi, python, wget, ssh "apps"). My point is that even if the N9 has 1% of the number of apps available as iOS then there's still probably loads of apps to cover many people's "few app" choices.

loschorts 15y ago

I agree -- and not just an ecosystem, but competition. Apple's native apps have to be up to snuff because of pressure from the store. Those few apps that rise to the top did so in part from the mechanism of competition.

notatoad 15y ago

>The problem is that those "few apps" that most other people use aren't the same "few apps" that he uses. are they really? having one or two obscure apps might be nice, but there are very, very few people for whom app availability is actually a necessity.

thirdsun 15y ago

Exactly. I guess most people would agree that there are only a handful of apps they really care about and use. As much as I like the efforts made on Meego, Windows mobile 7 and even WebOS (android not so much), as long as there is no alternative to reeder, instacast or kinetic, I'm not likely to switch anything. Of course there are feed readers, podcast management and sports tracking apps on other platforms but the big advantage of iOS is that a lot of developers are really commited to their projects resulting in apps that stand out.