5 ms·

China has split the cyber world in half with their Great Firewall. Until they open their cyber space up to the west I don’t see any reason why the outside world

by gataca 5y ago

China has split the cyber world in half with their Great Firewall. Until they open their cyber space up to the west I don’t see any reason why the outside world would allow state-controlled Chinese companies to have access to their markets/networks.

dragonelite 5y ago
We in the west were above those petty things right, we could out innovate the Chinese etc. But the clean network initiative isn't only about China, its also about Iran and Russian. I expect a big boom in Iran tech, the following next two decade now that China has given them a get out of jail card from the western financial siege war. Its not like western companies don't have access at all, Facebook for example still earns quiet some money from China selling ads, Google was planning on making a Chinese specific search engine called Project Dragonfly. Would google really allocate all those resources for a market they can't access?
- zthrowaway 5y ago
  Yes go ahead and innovate around them as they steal your intellectual property. If the Chinese networks / markets were so easy to penetrate as you are suggesting, why would Google have to spend so much time developing a separate search engine for them to be approved by the CCP? Why wouldn’t they just use the search engines that are already out there? It’s pretty obvious as to why.
  - dragonelite 5y ago
    History has shown that rising powers take what they need to keep their rise going. Just like the UK, France and other send spies to the Netherlands and steal our shipbuilding techniques in 17th century for their own naval rise. The same as the US did with the UK steal factory design keep their own industrial rise going. The Chinese are stealing/buying technical know how to keep their rise going. Like the saying goes, When in Rome, Do as the Romans Do. So when in China, follow the Chinese regulations. The Chinese should do the same when they want to invest here in the EU.
    - imiric 5y ago
      Past abuses of power shouldn't justify modern ones, nor should it be normalized and accepted by anyone. It should be criticized and measures put in place so that it doesn't happen again. We can do better as a civilization and learn from past mistakes. The fact China downplays and denies theirs while trying to gaslight the world should be reason enough to never do business with them until this changes and they can be transparent and honest. Unsurprisingly comments like yours come to their defense anytime a news story like this comes along. It's tiring, frankly.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        I don't think that taking tech is a mistake or a disaster. Ultimately it works like this - all rising powers have the choice to stay fully shackled by IP and remain subordinate and poor forever, or they can take that IP and provide a better life for their people. Unless there is some alternative there, I just can't fault a country for doing it. Especially when the current top dog is only there because they did it too. The concept of IP is already morally questionable to begin with, now we want to use it to keep half of the world poorer and dependent in perpetuity?
        imiric 5y ago
        I'm not advocating for IP laws, I agree they're not conducive to prosperity. What I'm against is abuse of trust between business partners, theft of information for political gain or commercial exploitation (counterfeit products), and general dishonesty and deceitfulness. I'm not well versed in game theory, but if tit-for-tat is a winning strategy, it's unreasonable to continue to cooperate with a party that actively tries to screw everyone else over at every turn.
bobthechef 5y ago
Indeed. From the safety of their proverbial fortress city, they can undermine Western power and project their own in the resulting vacuum. A tried and true tactic adapted to modern instruments. What I'm not sure about is why anyone is surprised. Especially in an age where everything is framed as a struggle for power, you would expect this to be the case, especially for an emerging superpower. Economics is here just war by other means, and consumerist lust for cheap goods the Trojan horse by which China will succeed.
- splithalf 5y ago
  I don’t think consumer lust is to blame though I hear that often. Perhaps it’s the trade, and those who profit off it that are to blame? Why blame people and not apple, Foxconn or Huawei? Humans must come first, nations and corporations should be subservient. Laws should favor human freedoms over the business of multinational mega corporations. Mega corporations that are controlled directly by the military of a major global superpower, Huawei, should be the most suspect in terms of violating human rights. Yet the posters here in this thread want to blame consumers and defend Huawei and the Chinese military. Astounding to me so many here care more about the right of corporations, military controlled corporations at that, over the rights and dignity of the individual. Disgusting frankly.
angio 5y ago
But Ericsson (an European company) is building part of the Chinese core 5G network, so your point is based on false premises.

by gataca 5y ago

dragonelite 5y ago

We in the west were above those petty things right, we could out innovate the Chinese etc. But the clean network initiative isn't only about China, its also about Iran and Russian. I expect a big boom in Iran tech, the following next two decade now that China has given them a get out of jail card from the western financial siege war. Its not like western companies don't have access at all, Facebook for example still earns quiet some money from China selling ads, Google was planning on making a Chinese specific search engine called Project Dragonfly. Would google really allocate all those resources for a market they can't access?

zthrowaway 5y ago
Yes go ahead and innovate around them as they steal your intellectual property. If the Chinese networks / markets were so easy to penetrate as you are suggesting, why would Google have to spend so much time developing a separate search engine for them to be approved by the CCP? Why wouldn’t they just use the search engines that are already out there? It’s pretty obvious as to why.
- dragonelite 5y ago
  History has shown that rising powers take what they need to keep their rise going. Just like the UK, France and other send spies to the Netherlands and steal our shipbuilding techniques in 17th century for their own naval rise. The same as the US did with the UK steal factory design keep their own industrial rise going. The Chinese are stealing/buying technical know how to keep their rise going. Like the saying goes, When in Rome, Do as the Romans Do. So when in China, follow the Chinese regulations. The Chinese should do the same when they want to invest here in the EU.
  - imiric 5y ago
    Past abuses of power shouldn't justify modern ones, nor should it be normalized and accepted by anyone. It should be criticized and measures put in place so that it doesn't happen again. We can do better as a civilization and learn from past mistakes. The fact China downplays and denies theirs while trying to gaslight the world should be reason enough to never do business with them until this changes and they can be transparent and honest. Unsurprisingly comments like yours come to their defense anytime a news story like this comes along. It's tiring, frankly.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      I don't think that taking tech is a mistake or a disaster. Ultimately it works like this - all rising powers have the choice to stay fully shackled by IP and remain subordinate and poor forever, or they can take that IP and provide a better life for their people. Unless there is some alternative there, I just can't fault a country for doing it. Especially when the current top dog is only there because they did it too. The concept of IP is already morally questionable to begin with, now we want to use it to keep half of the world poorer and dependent in perpetuity?
      - imiric 5y ago
        I'm not advocating for IP laws, I agree they're not conducive to prosperity. What I'm against is abuse of trust between business partners, theft of information for political gain or commercial exploitation (counterfeit products), and general dishonesty and deceitfulness. I'm not well versed in game theory, but if tit-for-tat is a winning strategy, it's unreasonable to continue to cooperate with a party that actively tries to screw everyone else over at every turn.

bobthechef 5y ago

Indeed. From the safety of their proverbial fortress city, they can undermine Western power and project their own in the resulting vacuum. A tried and true tactic adapted to modern instruments. What I'm not sure about is why anyone is surprised. Especially in an age where everything is framed as a struggle for power, you would expect this to be the case, especially for an emerging superpower. Economics is here just war by other means, and consumerist lust for cheap goods the Trojan horse by which China will succeed.

splithalf 5y ago
I don’t think consumer lust is to blame though I hear that often. Perhaps it’s the trade, and those who profit off it that are to blame? Why blame people and not apple, Foxconn or Huawei? Humans must come first, nations and corporations should be subservient. Laws should favor human freedoms over the business of multinational mega corporations. Mega corporations that are controlled directly by the military of a major global superpower, Huawei, should be the most suspect in terms of violating human rights. Yet the posters here in this thread want to blame consumers and defend Huawei and the Chinese military. Astounding to me so many here care more about the right of corporations, military controlled corporations at that, over the rights and dignity of the individual. Disgusting frankly.

angio 5y ago

But Ericsson (an European company) is building part of the Chinese core 5G network, so your point is based on false premises.