9 ms·

So, the ascent of U.S. universities to high status on a worldwide scale, happened in the first half of the 20th century really. Why? Well, because Europe was

So, the ascent of U.S. universities to high status on a worldwide scale, happened in the first half of the 20th century really. Why? Well, because Europe was tearing itself apart in two world wars, and the U.S. sat out the first half of both of those, while receiving a lot of talent fleeing those wars. If you have the money, and the former top-of-the-heap has bombed their wealth into rubble, it doesn't require any magic formula to use that money to get top notch research talent. I don't think any of the rest of what he discusses is necessary to explain this.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
asperous 6y ago
Plus it might be one of those things were once you have momentum there's a positive feedback loop. Top researchers may want to move to work with others in their field.
wahern 6y ago
It wasn't just the U.S. receiving that talent. Latin America, particularly Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, and Chile also saw 10s of millions of European immigrants.[1] Germans, Italians, Jews, Poles, etc, as well as Japanese and Chinese. Canada and Australia also saw significant migration. So the mere fact of the emigration of European talent doesn't quite answer the question. The role of European conflict driving emigration isn't at question here. But what distinguished U.S. schools? Why were they better able to leverage this accidental human bounty than other systems? It's not like there was a complete dearth of higher education institutions in Latin America. In the first few decades of the 20th century Argentina and Chile were some of the most well-developed nations on earth, scientifically and politically. [1] Circa 2003 I met a 90-ish-something Mexican born, ethnic Irish docent in the Bisbee, AZ museum. His parents fled Ireland to Mexico and worked a farm in Sonora, then killed in conflict between the Mexican Army and, IIRC, Apaches. He and his older brother trekked through the desert for several days to cross (illegally, I might add) to the U.S. I always thought that was a fascinating story--a nexus of different historical threads that, as an American, you would never really consider together.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  You might be interested by Operation Paperclip [0]. The US was actively looking for key scientific talent in then devastated Germany to bring back home after World War II. This concentration of talent, coupled with intense investments in fundamental research during the Cold War and better living conditions for scientists made it an obvious choice for any academic to relocate to the United States. Even today, the US immigration system still has a preference for foreigners who can meaningfully contribute to the advancement of science. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
  - jhbadger 6y ago
    Although the Soviets had a very similar system (Operation Osoaviakhim) to get German scientists after the war, although less well known (and also a bit less voluntary on the part of the scientists) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
    - flohofwoe 6y ago
      The Soviet's didn't really know how to properly make use of "their" Germans though, at least for working on concrete projects. Only very few designs of German teams actually made it into production (like the turboprop engines used in the Tu-95: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95), but the Soviets never trusted their Germans enough to really integrate them longterm with Russian teams, instead the goal was to extract the German knowledge as fast as possible and then "dump" them (most German engineers and researchers captured by the Soviets were allowed to return to Germany around the mid- to late-50s, leading to interesting, but ultimately doomed projects like the first German jet airliner Baade 152: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152). Meanwhile the "American Germans" were welcomed, decided to make the US their new home and contributed heavily to the US space programme.
      - rurban 6y ago
throwaway9980 6y ago
I think this is also the explanation for American success in the 20th century. The United States as we know it is, like all empires, built on the spoils of war. The United States was able to capture the best and brightest scientists. These people were brought into a system whose structure and demands were dictated by the needs of a growing government and military. This is the fuel that drove American exceptionalism.
- sk5t 6y ago
  > built on the spoils of war Negative, you may have confused the US with Rome. The US is the beneficiary of tremendous natural resources, temperate climate across a vast geography, natural isolation from external threats, and mostly very stable governmental structures.
  - klodolph 6y ago
    Those natural resources were acquired by conquering and displacing the original inhabitants.
    - rajin444 6y ago
      That's a statement that applies to nearly every society ever. What's the point of saying it? The post you're replying to is talking about a unique distinction in how 2 societies maintained power.
      - klodolph 6y ago
        > That's a statement that applies to nearly every society ever. What's the point of saying it? There's something to be said for relevance. It may be true for nearly every society, but the amount of relevance varies. The US conquered an astonishing amount of territory in recent history, which makes it relevant.
        WalterBright 6y ago
practicalpants 6y ago
This is a general misconception you hear that America's dominance in the world (and universities) was due to the "old world" imploding in WWII. It obviously helped the US but already in the early second half of the 19th C America was dominating the industrial revolution, by a wide margin, and had cemented it's place as top GDP (overall and per capita), top global talent magnet, and top overall technical education levels. IMO America has been the center of innovation with top universities because it is the top place where talent, globally, wants to go to make their fortune. This has been going on for more than a century. Whatever country is the top magnet for global talent is going to have the top university systems as well as be the center of the world scene long term. E.g. if another country, say China, wants to succeed into this role it must be the top destination for global talent.
- orbifold 6y ago
  This is just factually untrue the GDP of the British empire was much larger than that of the US and in terms of scientific innovation Germany was widely considered to be at the forefront with France and UK as equals. The US was largely a scientific backwater.
  - practicalpants 6y ago
    I do not know what textbooks you read or economic history lectures you took to reach your conclusion. This is the second half of the 19th C, the US was absolutely dominating the industrial revolution in the era that produced the Carnegies Rockefellers JP Morgans and dozens of others of similar stature. Entire new industries and processes like interchangeable parts, telegraph, petroleum products, railraods, rise of malls/retail, electricity, meat packing, industrial farming, investment banking etc. was all either originating from or reaching heights in the US, which also had the highest patents per capita rate, and an international reputation for a general population that was technically competent for the industrial rev. (Not to mention the gov was essentially giving away 160 acre plots to anyone who wanted to settle elsewhere, which created intense pressure to mechanize due to menial labor shortages, not to mention a broader based prosperity.)
chakhs 6y ago
I would add to that control over top scientific journals. Before the war people used to publish scientific work in other languages, and in local journals. After the war the US took more control over published research. But it's also because of the money, and a good strategy ofc
deathtrader666 6y ago
Plus, the US is literally printing its own money with abandon.
N1H1L 6y ago
Also Nazi Germany. German universities just tanked while many American universities became the home of Jews fleeing Nazism.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

asperous 6y ago

Plus it might be one of those things were once you have momentum there's a positive feedback loop. Top researchers may want to move to work with others in their field.

wahern 6y ago

It wasn't just the U.S. receiving that talent. Latin America, particularly Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, and Chile also saw 10s of millions of European immigrants.[1] Germans, Italians, Jews, Poles, etc, as well as Japanese and Chinese. Canada and Australia also saw significant migration. So the mere fact of the emigration of European talent doesn't quite answer the question. The role of European conflict driving emigration isn't at question here. But what distinguished U.S. schools? Why were they better able to leverage this accidental human bounty than other systems? It's not like there was a complete dearth of higher education institutions in Latin America. In the first few decades of the 20th century Argentina and Chile were some of the most well-developed nations on earth, scientifically and politically. [1] Circa 2003 I met a 90-ish-something Mexican born, ethnic Irish docent in the Bisbee, AZ museum. His parents fled Ireland to Mexico and worked a farm in Sonora, then killed in conflict between the Mexican Army and, IIRC, Apaches. He and his older brother trekked through the desert for several days to cross (illegally, I might add) to the U.S. I always thought that was a fascinating story--a nexus of different historical threads that, as an American, you would never really consider together.

908B64B197 6y ago
You might be interested by Operation Paperclip [0]. The US was actively looking for key scientific talent in then devastated Germany to bring back home after World War II. This concentration of talent, coupled with intense investments in fundamental research during the Cold War and better living conditions for scientists made it an obvious choice for any academic to relocate to the United States. Even today, the US immigration system still has a preference for foreigners who can meaningfully contribute to the advancement of science. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
- jhbadger 6y ago
  Although the Soviets had a very similar system (Operation Osoaviakhim) to get German scientists after the war, although less well known (and also a bit less voluntary on the part of the scientists) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
  - flohofwoe 6y ago
    The Soviet's didn't really know how to properly make use of "their" Germans though, at least for working on concrete projects. Only very few designs of German teams actually made it into production (like the turboprop engines used in the Tu-95: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95), but the Soviets never trusted their Germans enough to really integrate them longterm with Russian teams, instead the goal was to extract the German knowledge as fast as possible and then "dump" them (most German engineers and researchers captured by the Soviets were allowed to return to Germany around the mid- to late-50s, leading to interesting, but ultimately doomed projects like the first German jet airliner Baade 152: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152). Meanwhile the "American Germans" were welcomed, decided to make the US their new home and contributed heavily to the US space programme.
    - rurban 6y ago

throwaway9980 6y ago

I think this is also the explanation for American success in the 20th century. The United States as we know it is, like all empires, built on the spoils of war. The United States was able to capture the best and brightest scientists. These people were brought into a system whose structure and demands were dictated by the needs of a growing government and military. This is the fuel that drove American exceptionalism.

sk5t 6y ago
> built on the spoils of war Negative, you may have confused the US with Rome. The US is the beneficiary of tremendous natural resources, temperate climate across a vast geography, natural isolation from external threats, and mostly very stable governmental structures.
- klodolph 6y ago
  Those natural resources were acquired by conquering and displacing the original inhabitants.
  - rajin444 6y ago
    That's a statement that applies to nearly every society ever. What's the point of saying it? The post you're replying to is talking about a unique distinction in how 2 societies maintained power.
    - klodolph 6y ago
      > That's a statement that applies to nearly every society ever. What's the point of saying it? There's something to be said for relevance. It may be true for nearly every society, but the amount of relevance varies. The US conquered an astonishing amount of territory in recent history, which makes it relevant.
      - WalterBright 6y ago

practicalpants 6y ago

This is a general misconception you hear that America's dominance in the world (and universities) was due to the "old world" imploding in WWII. It obviously helped the US but already in the early second half of the 19th C America was dominating the industrial revolution, by a wide margin, and had cemented it's place as top GDP (overall and per capita), top global talent magnet, and top overall technical education levels. IMO America has been the center of innovation with top universities because it is the top place where talent, globally, wants to go to make their fortune. This has been going on for more than a century. Whatever country is the top magnet for global talent is going to have the top university systems as well as be the center of the world scene long term. E.g. if another country, say China, wants to succeed into this role it must be the top destination for global talent.

orbifold 6y ago
This is just factually untrue the GDP of the British empire was much larger than that of the US and in terms of scientific innovation Germany was widely considered to be at the forefront with France and UK as equals. The US was largely a scientific backwater.
- practicalpants 6y ago
  I do not know what textbooks you read or economic history lectures you took to reach your conclusion. This is the second half of the 19th C, the US was absolutely dominating the industrial revolution in the era that produced the Carnegies Rockefellers JP Morgans and dozens of others of similar stature. Entire new industries and processes like interchangeable parts, telegraph, petroleum products, railraods, rise of malls/retail, electricity, meat packing, industrial farming, investment banking etc. was all either originating from or reaching heights in the US, which also had the highest patents per capita rate, and an international reputation for a general population that was technically competent for the industrial rev. (Not to mention the gov was essentially giving away 160 acre plots to anyone who wanted to settle elsewhere, which created intense pressure to mechanize due to menial labor shortages, not to mention a broader based prosperity.)

chakhs 6y ago

I would add to that control over top scientific journals. Before the war people used to publish scientific work in other languages, and in local journals. After the war the US took more control over published research. But it's also because of the money, and a good strategy ofc

deathtrader666 6y ago

Plus, the US is literally printing its own money with abandon.

N1H1L 6y ago

Also Nazi Germany. German universities just tanked while many American universities became the home of Jews fleeing Nazism.