5 ms·

Anonymous web makes sense. The very idea that we need an ad profile that follows us as we traverse the web is ridiculous. Contextual advertising works. Visit

Anonymous web makes sense. The very idea that we need an ad profile that follows us as we traverse the web is ridiculous. Contextual advertising works. Visit a popular website covering PC hardware .. and advertisers can pay to put ads to parts, chips, cases, etc. Visit a website that covers hiking trails and companies can purchase ads for camping gear, travel lodging, etc. The very notion that it should be normal for an ad profile to be built around everything I do on the web is frankly dystopian and depressing.

jrm4 6y ago
And even that's a second order thing. Even if Patreon (or hey, onlyfans) aren't the dominant model now, I'm fine with breaking nearly any invisible system of content payment in favor of visible ones just to see what happens.
hakfoo 6y ago
At this point, I think it's become a "too big to fail" argument for the industry. We have several near-trillion-dollar companies that basically have no viable business model other than doubling down on targeted advertising. If third-party cookies get demonized or GDPR'd to death, they need to pivot to SOMETHING else that still fits into the same profiling paradigm. I suspect it's not about results or innovation anymore, it's about being a moat. Only a trillion-dollar company with huge scale and scope can possibly build and maintain "high quality" profiles, so it's a great way to spread FUD against any competing, potentially actually privacy-first, ad-tech upstarts. I'm sort of waiting for the "Emperor has no clothes" moment. We see the occasional "Brand stops advertising for 6 months and sales stay on trend" story, or the "our best conversions come from real content and relevant direct ads" story. We have the fact that ad spend grows and yet publishers starve, implying the middlemen are taking an ever-larger chunk of value out of the ecosystem in exchange for their services. It's gonna be ugly when the dots are joined.
- bopbeepboop 6y ago
  I believe ads work — but I’ve seen little evidence anything beyond contextual ads work. But yeah, show someone on a blog about new GPUs an ad to buy a GPU and there’s an uptick. Turns out some of those people do want to buy GPUs. Showing me an ad for GPUs on the YouTube page for cat videos because I visited that blog previously is weird. Like a friend going, “so looking at these cats reminds me — do you want my friend Dave’s GPU?”
- damau 6y ago
  I understand your point. Though when email campaigns came out the goal was to send the email to everyone. Then it was to target people. I think that targeted emailing obsession then led to the natural conclusion of targeted adverts on the web through personalisation. I'm not sure the ROI on the adverts is what companies think it is. Just like it isn't for email campaigns. I feel there may be a better market like roody15 has said for contextual analysis of websites and provide adverts based on that. Enhanced with Anon user traffic and buy paths. Which could slowly overtake if done well. Also on the effectiveness: https://thecorrespondent.com/100/the-new-dot-com-bubble-is-here-its-called-online-advertising/13228924500-22d5fd24 https://thecorrespondent.com/100/the-new-dot-com-bubble-is-h... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21465873 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21465873 https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/16/facebook-lured-advertisers-by-inflating-ad-watch-times-up-to-900-percent-lawsuit/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/16/facebook-lured-advert... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18234626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18234626 Then if you cross reference this with how procurement works, bullshit jobs and similar (can't find that article) starts to make some sense. Though there may be arguments such as manipulation as to why the focus is on the advert personalisation and not the nefarious things that can come out of it. Think McCarthy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism#Blacklists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism#Blacklists Regardless of your persuasion consider if the other side gets in and you end up on the black list. 'I don't mind adverts tracking me' vs 'I can't get a job because of X opinion'

jrm4 6y ago

And even that's a second order thing. Even if Patreon (or hey, onlyfans) aren't the dominant model now, I'm fine with breaking nearly any invisible system of content payment in favor of visible ones just to see what happens.

hakfoo 6y ago

At this point, I think it's become a "too big to fail" argument for the industry. We have several near-trillion-dollar companies that basically have no viable business model other than doubling down on targeted advertising. If third-party cookies get demonized or GDPR'd to death, they need to pivot to SOMETHING else that still fits into the same profiling paradigm. I suspect it's not about results or innovation anymore, it's about being a moat. Only a trillion-dollar company with huge scale and scope can possibly build and maintain "high quality" profiles, so it's a great way to spread FUD against any competing, potentially actually privacy-first, ad-tech upstarts. I'm sort of waiting for the "Emperor has no clothes" moment. We see the occasional "Brand stops advertising for 6 months and sales stay on trend" story, or the "our best conversions come from real content and relevant direct ads" story. We have the fact that ad spend grows and yet publishers starve, implying the middlemen are taking an ever-larger chunk of value out of the ecosystem in exchange for their services. It's gonna be ugly when the dots are joined.

bopbeepboop 6y ago
I believe ads work — but I’ve seen little evidence anything beyond contextual ads work. But yeah, show someone on a blog about new GPUs an ad to buy a GPU and there’s an uptick. Turns out some of those people do want to buy GPUs. Showing me an ad for GPUs on the YouTube page for cat videos because I visited that blog previously is weird. Like a friend going, “so looking at these cats reminds me — do you want my friend Dave’s GPU?”
damau 6y ago
I understand your point. Though when email campaigns came out the goal was to send the email to everyone. Then it was to target people. I think that targeted emailing obsession then led to the natural conclusion of targeted adverts on the web through personalisation. I'm not sure the ROI on the adverts is what companies think it is. Just like it isn't for email campaigns. I feel there may be a better market like roody15 has said for contextual analysis of websites and provide adverts based on that. Enhanced with Anon user traffic and buy paths. Which could slowly overtake if done well. Also on the effectiveness: https://thecorrespondent.com/100/the-new-dot-com-bubble-is-here-its-called-online-advertising/13228924500-22d5fd24 https://thecorrespondent.com/100/the-new-dot-com-bubble-is-h... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21465873 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21465873 https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/16/facebook-lured-advertisers-by-inflating-ad-watch-times-up-to-900-percent-lawsuit/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/16/facebook-lured-advert... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18234626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18234626 Then if you cross reference this with how procurement works, bullshit jobs and similar (can't find that article) starts to make some sense. Though there may be arguments such as manipulation as to why the focus is on the advert personalisation and not the nefarious things that can come out of it. Think McCarthy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism#Blacklists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism#Blacklists Regardless of your persuasion consider if the other side gets in and you end up on the black list. 'I don't mind adverts tracking me' vs 'I can't get a job because of X opinion'