7 ms·

Also, taxes are money. Essentially, a government issues money to its (armed) servants. It also demands its citizens to pay a certain tax in form of that money.

Also, taxes are money. Essentially, a government issues money to its (armed) servants. It also demands its citizens to pay a certain tax in form of that money. This forces the citizens to work for and sell to the government's servants to obtain that money. Servants are happy, government can continue to govern, citizens, well, who cares, right?

kaliali 6y ago
Its like the mafia coming to your door wanting a protection fee but instead the government is much bigger and even pays to punish people for wrong-think like on this site. If you don't pay your taxes and fight back, the government will send its servants to kill you or beat you until money pops out.
- frankbreetz 6y ago
  If you don't like taxes why wouldn't you move to a country that doesn't have taxes like Somalia? Is it because taxes pay for security and things you use everyday like infrastructure?
  - AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
    Somalia has some other issues. That being said, I would happily move to a country with 0% income tax, such as Monaco or Oman. Alas these countries do not allow free movement of people through their borders.
  - Grim-444 6y ago
    It's a common strawman argument to paint the argument as black and white, that either you want taxes or you want zero taxes. When in reality there's many shades of grey. The majority of people that complain about taxes don't want zero taxation, they just want to be taxed fairly, with proper representation, and for the government to make proper use of the money they do take, with accountability, before demanding more from the citizens.
    - epgui 6y ago
      These are things that everyone want, they don't really distinguish those who complain about taxes from those who don't. I'd propose, simplistically, that people who demand tax cuts have in common the following characteristics: - they may be confused about the role(s) of taxation - they may not have sat down with pen and paper to try and figure out how to work a government's finances - they may not be aware that a lot of the information they're demanding is public, or may not know where to find it - they may not have a clear idea of which services to cut, or might not fully appreciate the importance of the services they'd like to cut Conversely, it is highly probable that the people who support tax hikes: - have a clear understanding of at least some of the roles of taxation - have a specific idea what budget item they would like to see it spent on
      - sokoloff 6y ago
        I think there's a non-trivial (and certainly non-zero) portion of the population who would specifically enjoy tax hikes on other people who have become, in their judgment, too successful.
        AlexandrB 6y ago
        Huge success is only possible in the context of systems and infrastructure that enable it. There are no billionaires in Mad Max because society has crumbled - you can't leverage an educated workforce to build your widgets or a working interstate highway system to move them around. Is it so much to ask that those that benefit the most from the legal, financial, law enforcement, and military infrastructure of a country contribute proportionally more of the fruits of their success back to the maintenance of those systems? That's not even mentioning those that are successful and wealthy in part because of government subsidies and support (e.g. green credits for Tesla).
        refurb 6y ago
        For your logic to be true there must be no billionaires in low tax countries. HK has billionaires and a very low tax rate - ergo, the amount of taxes needed to pay for “the system” to become rich are actually quite low.
  - monkeycantype 6y ago
    Our governments are empires that have had democracy patched into them. Yes taxes pay for security and infrastructure, but this isn't why taxes are collected, taxes are collected because government is a self sustaining system largely populated by self serving individuals drawn to power. Unlike my anarchist and libertarian friends, I don't think there is a better strategy than iterating on what we have, so we really don't have a better alternative that continuing to fix what we have, but that doesn't require us to pretend that our current systems are the benevolent commonwealths we would like the to be. (let's see how mars works out)
  - jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 6y ago
    Somolia has taxes. If you don't want to pay (income) tax there is Monaco, UAE, Bermuda, Bahamas, etc. Somehow they manage to have roads and firemen.
    - epgui 6y ago
      Those countries all have various forms of (non-income) taxation.
      - AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
        Could you please elaborate a bit? Because on the surface it looks like USA also has non-income taxation, such as sales tax (in lieu of VAT), property tax and so on.
        kortilla 6y ago
        Sales and property tax don’t go to the federal government.
  - ipaddr 6y ago
    You do realize as an American you have to pay US taxes whatever you live in the world so simple moving wouldn't help. You could drop your citizenship but you will need another. No country with little or no taxes will give you a citizenship. Your best bet is to stay in the US and complain to get policies changed. Or live in the woods/desert. The average person has no real path to a tax free life but the rich can use loops.
    - 4rtyui9xd 6y ago
      Do the wealthy need the government's services, financed through taxes, as much as "the average person". What if a US citizen obtainins citizenship in a country that does not tax non-residents, relinquishes her US citizenship and then moves to a country that has little or no taxes.
      - analog31 6y ago
        Yes, even moreso than the rest of us. The wealthy need things like corporate and financial regulation, the tort system, and other economic infrastructure that the poor aren't even aware of. If the hypothetical wealthy citizen moves to a country without functioning government infrastructure, it's a safe bet that their first priority upon landing will be to figure out a way to move their assets into instruments that are valued in dollars or euro's.
        4rtyui9xd 6y ago
        "Yes, even moreso than the rest of us." But, generally, the wealthy do not pay more in taxes than the non-wealthy. They generally pay less.
      - ipaddr 6y ago
        I like using the non-resident loophole angle. It could be possible. The rich use more of the system than the average person. The area of law, finace, education and property. They receive money/credit for investment in local communities.
  - HideousKojima 6y ago
    Somalia has taxes in the form of warlords taking whatever they want. And Somalia is always trotted out as an example of Anarchy (or more uncharitably as an example of Libertarianism) by people ignorant of its history, often willfully so. Somalia is just another failed Socialist state: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Revolutionary_Socialist_Party https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Revolutionary_Sociali...
    - AstralStorm 6y ago
      By failed you mean the government was couped, right? And it being called socialist is a bit of a funny thing, with encouraging private investment and high degree of authoritarianism, even totalitarianism. This is not the same thing at all.
      - HideousKojima 6y ago
        >And it being called socialist is a bit of a funny thing, with encouraging private investment and high degree of authoritarianism, even totalitarianism. Yes, like every other failed Socialist and Communist state, they made promises of economic inequality and instead becane authoritarian genocidal maniacs.
  - 1cvmask 6y ago
    Black Somalia would have to raise to taxes to defend itself against white countries that bomb it.
  - kortilla 6y ago
    If you like taxes why don’t you move to the country with the highest tax rate? What a stupid argument.
    - frankbreetz 6y ago
      If I was as passionate about it as the parent, I would. For me, there are other factors to where I live besides taxes. Also, it's hard migrate to countries with high taxes, because they are deseriable places to live. It's not hard to migrate to Somalia. It's also not deseriable to live there. That's the point.
      - kortilla 6y ago
        They are trivial to relocate to if you have money and would be the one actually paying the high taxes (top half of middle-class income and above). There is a reason people making 6 figure+ salaries aren’t clamoring to move to France/Portugal/Brazil/Sweden. They aren’t actually all that desirable if you are the one paying the brunt of the taxes. If you’re actually “passionate about taxes” and you don’t make good money, you would be happy to relocate to the country with the highest taxes for low income... Swaziland. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/highest-taxed-countries https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/highest-t... Both you and the parent aren’t actually fans of high taxes it sounds like. Instead you just like social programs paid for by someone else.
        frankbreetz 6y ago
        Are there more rich people in Somalia or "France/Portugal/Brazil/Sweden". It's almost like everyone including rich people benefit from a society where government is properly funded. It's also seems properly funded governments generate more capable people(see incomes over 6 fig). Obviously you can over-do it, but parent compared taxes to protection money from the mafia and that is ridiculous. Also people who are “passionate about taxes” think that rich people benefit more from a properly funded society then more poor people, so they should pay more. So as the parent says "what a stupid argument" Also, of course we are my passionate about high taxes. We are passionate about the society that high taxes provide. All of your arguments seen quite disengenious.
- intergalplan 6y ago
  God is love. Love is blind. Ray Charles is blind. Ray Charles is God.
  - ggm 6y ago
    Ray Charles is dead, ergo...
  - didericis 6y ago
    I see no flaw in your conclusion.
- adamjb 6y ago
  Tired: the government is like the mafia Wired: the mafia is like the government
  - lukewrites 6y ago
    Inspired: mafernment
jrochkind1 6y ago
I learned this theory from David Graeber's Debt. You are a ruler with an army. That army has to be fed. It can just violently take what it needs from the population. But that is disorderly and makes people mad at you. So, instead, you issue money to the soldiers. By why would the population take this money in exchange for food? Even if it's made out of a precious metal, what does a peasant want with gold, when nobody else wants it either (unless maybe they want to make something out of gold, but who can afford that). Well, you say they need to pay you taxes in this money you have issued. Now they've got to get some of it, and the soldiers are the ones with the supply. So you give them food in exchange. I haven't read that account of the origin of money anywhere else (and I'm not sure how much consensus there is around it among relevant ancient historians), but I have read that taxation originates generally from the need/want to maintain large/standing armies. Not just that you have an army for the purpose of exracting tribute by force; but that you had an army for some other reason (conquering "someone else's" land or defending "yours"), and now you need to extract resources from "your" population to maintain it. This idea is referenced a bit in OP in the context of Europe: "But from around the late fifteenth century, war became more expensive… "
- nyolfen 6y ago
  the social function of money far predates states: https://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/ https://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/
- mulmen 6y ago
  This is an interesting idea but seems simplistic. Certainly the peasants also need to trade with each other, regardless of the presence of an army? Money facilitates that trade. You can barter chickens or goats or whatever but at some point nobody needs more of those either. Especially because chickens have to be fed. When the thing being traded has only abstract value it becomes money, even if the tokens are chickens. I think an argument could be made that armies are just a jobs program. In a way money necessities jobs because of the increased economic capabilities of that abstract trade token. With more efficient trade the peasants have less to do so they need ever more complex jobs. An army (and the military-industrial complex) provide those jobs.
lolthishuman 6y ago
Instead of getting plundered you pay taxes. The rulers learned the fear of plunder is enough.

kaliali 6y ago

Its like the mafia coming to your door wanting a protection fee but instead the government is much bigger and even pays to punish people for wrong-think like on this site. If you don't pay your taxes and fight back, the government will send its servants to kill you or beat you until money pops out.

frankbreetz 6y ago
If you don't like taxes why wouldn't you move to a country that doesn't have taxes like Somalia? Is it because taxes pay for security and things you use everyday like infrastructure?
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
  Somalia has some other issues. That being said, I would happily move to a country with 0% income tax, such as Monaco or Oman. Alas these countries do not allow free movement of people through their borders.
- Grim-444 6y ago
  It's a common strawman argument to paint the argument as black and white, that either you want taxes or you want zero taxes. When in reality there's many shades of grey. The majority of people that complain about taxes don't want zero taxation, they just want to be taxed fairly, with proper representation, and for the government to make proper use of the money they do take, with accountability, before demanding more from the citizens.
  - epgui 6y ago
    These are things that everyone want, they don't really distinguish those who complain about taxes from those who don't. I'd propose, simplistically, that people who demand tax cuts have in common the following characteristics: - they may be confused about the role(s) of taxation - they may not have sat down with pen and paper to try and figure out how to work a government's finances - they may not be aware that a lot of the information they're demanding is public, or may not know where to find it - they may not have a clear idea of which services to cut, or might not fully appreciate the importance of the services they'd like to cut Conversely, it is highly probable that the people who support tax hikes: - have a clear understanding of at least some of the roles of taxation - have a specific idea what budget item they would like to see it spent on
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      I think there's a non-trivial (and certainly non-zero) portion of the population who would specifically enjoy tax hikes on other people who have become, in their judgment, too successful.
      - AlexandrB 6y ago
        Huge success is only possible in the context of systems and infrastructure that enable it. There are no billionaires in Mad Max because society has crumbled - you can't leverage an educated workforce to build your widgets or a working interstate highway system to move them around. Is it so much to ask that those that benefit the most from the legal, financial, law enforcement, and military infrastructure of a country contribute proportionally more of the fruits of their success back to the maintenance of those systems? That's not even mentioning those that are successful and wealthy in part because of government subsidies and support (e.g. green credits for Tesla).
        refurb 6y ago
        For your logic to be true there must be no billionaires in low tax countries. HK has billionaires and a very low tax rate - ergo, the amount of taxes needed to pay for “the system” to become rich are actually quite low.
- monkeycantype 6y ago
  Our governments are empires that have had democracy patched into them. Yes taxes pay for security and infrastructure, but this isn't why taxes are collected, taxes are collected because government is a self sustaining system largely populated by self serving individuals drawn to power. Unlike my anarchist and libertarian friends, I don't think there is a better strategy than iterating on what we have, so we really don't have a better alternative that continuing to fix what we have, but that doesn't require us to pretend that our current systems are the benevolent commonwealths we would like the to be. (let's see how mars works out)
- jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 6y ago
  Somolia has taxes. If you don't want to pay (income) tax there is Monaco, UAE, Bermuda, Bahamas, etc. Somehow they manage to have roads and firemen.
  - epgui 6y ago
    Those countries all have various forms of (non-income) taxation.
    - AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
      Could you please elaborate a bit? Because on the surface it looks like USA also has non-income taxation, such as sales tax (in lieu of VAT), property tax and so on.
      - kortilla 6y ago
        Sales and property tax don’t go to the federal government.
- ipaddr 6y ago
  You do realize as an American you have to pay US taxes whatever you live in the world so simple moving wouldn't help. You could drop your citizenship but you will need another. No country with little or no taxes will give you a citizenship. Your best bet is to stay in the US and complain to get policies changed. Or live in the woods/desert. The average person has no real path to a tax free life but the rich can use loops.
  - 4rtyui9xd 6y ago
    Do the wealthy need the government's services, financed through taxes, as much as "the average person". What if a US citizen obtainins citizenship in a country that does not tax non-residents, relinquishes her US citizenship and then moves to a country that has little or no taxes.
    - analog31 6y ago
      Yes, even moreso than the rest of us. The wealthy need things like corporate and financial regulation, the tort system, and other economic infrastructure that the poor aren't even aware of. If the hypothetical wealthy citizen moves to a country without functioning government infrastructure, it's a safe bet that their first priority upon landing will be to figure out a way to move their assets into instruments that are valued in dollars or euro's.
      - 4rtyui9xd 6y ago
        "Yes, even moreso than the rest of us." But, generally, the wealthy do not pay more in taxes than the non-wealthy. They generally pay less.
    - ipaddr 6y ago
      I like using the non-resident loophole angle. It could be possible. The rich use more of the system than the average person. The area of law, finace, education and property. They receive money/credit for investment in local communities.
- HideousKojima 6y ago
  Somalia has taxes in the form of warlords taking whatever they want. And Somalia is always trotted out as an example of Anarchy (or more uncharitably as an example of Libertarianism) by people ignorant of its history, often willfully so. Somalia is just another failed Socialist state: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Revolutionary_Socialist_Party https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Revolutionary_Sociali...
  - AstralStorm 6y ago
    By failed you mean the government was couped, right? And it being called socialist is a bit of a funny thing, with encouraging private investment and high degree of authoritarianism, even totalitarianism. This is not the same thing at all.
    - HideousKojima 6y ago
      >And it being called socialist is a bit of a funny thing, with encouraging private investment and high degree of authoritarianism, even totalitarianism. Yes, like every other failed Socialist and Communist state, they made promises of economic inequality and instead becane authoritarian genocidal maniacs.
- 1cvmask 6y ago
  Black Somalia would have to raise to taxes to defend itself against white countries that bomb it.
- kortilla 6y ago
  If you like taxes why don’t you move to the country with the highest tax rate? What a stupid argument.
  - frankbreetz 6y ago
    If I was as passionate about it as the parent, I would. For me, there are other factors to where I live besides taxes. Also, it's hard migrate to countries with high taxes, because they are deseriable places to live. It's not hard to migrate to Somalia. It's also not deseriable to live there. That's the point.
    - kortilla 6y ago
      They are trivial to relocate to if you have money and would be the one actually paying the high taxes (top half of middle-class income and above). There is a reason people making 6 figure+ salaries aren’t clamoring to move to France/Portugal/Brazil/Sweden. They aren’t actually all that desirable if you are the one paying the brunt of the taxes. If you’re actually “passionate about taxes” and you don’t make good money, you would be happy to relocate to the country with the highest taxes for low income... Swaziland. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/highest-taxed-countries https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/highest-t... Both you and the parent aren’t actually fans of high taxes it sounds like. Instead you just like social programs paid for by someone else.
      - frankbreetz 6y ago
        Are there more rich people in Somalia or "France/Portugal/Brazil/Sweden". It's almost like everyone including rich people benefit from a society where government is properly funded. It's also seems properly funded governments generate more capable people(see incomes over 6 fig). Obviously you can over-do it, but parent compared taxes to protection money from the mafia and that is ridiculous. Also people who are “passionate about taxes” think that rich people benefit more from a properly funded society then more poor people, so they should pay more. So as the parent says "what a stupid argument" Also, of course we are my passionate about high taxes. We are passionate about the society that high taxes provide. All of your arguments seen quite disengenious.
intergalplan 6y ago
God is love. Love is blind. Ray Charles is blind. Ray Charles is God.
- ggm 6y ago
  Ray Charles is dead, ergo...
- didericis 6y ago
  I see no flaw in your conclusion.
adamjb 6y ago
Tired: the government is like the mafia Wired: the mafia is like the government
- lukewrites 6y ago
  Inspired: mafernment

jrochkind1 6y ago

I learned this theory from David Graeber's Debt. You are a ruler with an army. That army has to be fed. It can just violently take what it needs from the population. But that is disorderly and makes people mad at you. So, instead, you issue money to the soldiers. By why would the population take this money in exchange for food? Even if it's made out of a precious metal, what does a peasant want with gold, when nobody else wants it either (unless maybe they want to make something out of gold, but who can afford that). Well, you say they need to pay you taxes in this money you have issued. Now they've got to get some of it, and the soldiers are the ones with the supply. So you give them food in exchange. I haven't read that account of the origin of money anywhere else (and I'm not sure how much consensus there is around it among relevant ancient historians), but I have read that taxation originates generally from the need/want to maintain large/standing armies. Not just that you have an army for the purpose of exracting tribute by force; but that you had an army for some other reason (conquering "someone else's" land or defending "yours"), and now you need to extract resources from "your" population to maintain it. This idea is referenced a bit in OP in the context of Europe: "But from around the late fifteenth century, war became more expensive… "

nyolfen 6y ago
the social function of money far predates states: https://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/ https://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/
mulmen 6y ago
This is an interesting idea but seems simplistic. Certainly the peasants also need to trade with each other, regardless of the presence of an army? Money facilitates that trade. You can barter chickens or goats or whatever but at some point nobody needs more of those either. Especially because chickens have to be fed. When the thing being traded has only abstract value it becomes money, even if the tokens are chickens. I think an argument could be made that armies are just a jobs program. In a way money necessities jobs because of the increased economic capabilities of that abstract trade token. With more efficient trade the peasants have less to do so they need ever more complex jobs. An army (and the military-industrial complex) provide those jobs.

lolthishuman 6y ago

Instead of getting plundered you pay taxes. The rulers learned the fear of plunder is enough.