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You need machine tools capable of tight tolerances and quality metals/alloys to make useable (for work) steam engines. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Abbasid, P

You need machine tools capable of tight tolerances and quality metals/alloys to make useable (for work) steam engines. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Abbasid, Persians, Europeans, etc all lacked these, thus no usable steam engines in antiquity/Middle Ages. Usable engines followed consistent quality metal production and machine tools pretty closely, it’s not like older people were just stupid, they didn’t have the technology necessary to create steam engines capable of real work. It’s like asking “Why wasn’t there a chess engine as good as stockfish for the PDP-11?” It simply wasn’t possible with the technology in 1970.

FredPret 6y ago
Good point regarding tooling, metal, and tolerances. But in this hypothetical timeline they would’ve hand-made the first leaky and inefficient engine if someone with some clout had the idea for a piston back then. These people didn’t blink at moving mountains to build burial crypts, so it’s conceivable that they might’ve experimented with steam if that notion struck, say, the pharaoh.
- aksss 6y ago
  Smil’s book about Making the 20th Century has some good context for this type of discussion. Highly recommended if interested in how technical leaps happen.
samatman 6y ago
That's a conventional response with a lot of merit to it. But then I watch Clickspring recreating the Antikythera mechanism, and I wonder. Yes, there is a big leap between what is effectively clockwork and, say, making a pressure boiler. But I wonder: if Francis Bacon had been a student of Euclid and derived the scientific method in 3rd century BC Alexandria, and Rome had been better governed, devoting more energy to science and less to war, speed-walking the tech tree 1500 years early isn't impossible to contemplate. Fun to think about anyway!
- macleginn 6y ago
  As one of my uni professors said, if the Persians had not annihilated Miletus, the humanity would've walked on the Moon much sooner.
  - FredPret 6y ago
    Really shows the value of protecting an enlightened state with a strong military. Science = long-term benefit, military = survival right now. I remember playing Master of Orion 2 with a pure science focus and getting my ass whipped every time. Then I realised that a good long term strategy needs to work around a good short-term strategy which enjoys priority. I switched to population and production focused games, and suddenly the “Impossible” AI was too easy.
trhway 6y ago
Romans had copper and that would be enough to run the Empire using the telegraph. They just didn't know about the electricity and how to make a voltaic pile in particular even though they had the sufficient technology.
- SergeAx 6y ago
  You would need pure zink (obtained in ~1750) and pure acid to implement voltac pile. You would need copper wire to implement telegraph.
  - trhway 6y ago
    you don't need pure acid. Vinegar of high concentration would do great. >You would need pure zink (obtained in ~1750) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_metallurgy#Types_of_metal_used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_metallurgy#Types_of_meta... "By the height of the Roman Empire, metals in use included: silver, zinc, iron, mercury, arsenic, antimony, lead, gold, copper, tin" >You would need copper wire to implement telegraph copper is very pliable, so it is easy to make wires.
    - SergeAx 6y ago
      Zink was used by ancient Greeks and Romans in a brass alloy. Zink and copper are interchangeable in a crystal structure of brass, and are inseparable because of that. Obviously, brass is useless in voltac pile because of copper in it. I am not that sure about vinegar as a medium. I beleive it will lead to low voltage and weak power, rendering the pile useless for long distance transmission. The same applies to copper wire. You need steel to draw copper to make wire, otherwise wires will be short, need to be soldered and become ineffective for long distance. Also, telegraph lines are too easy to sabotage. Fire signals are much more reliable to rule ancient empire.
ouid 6y ago
Also worth mentioning that a lot of what is considered technology is actually mathematics.

FredPret 6y ago

Good point regarding tooling, metal, and tolerances. But in this hypothetical timeline they would’ve hand-made the first leaky and inefficient engine if someone with some clout had the idea for a piston back then. These people didn’t blink at moving mountains to build burial crypts, so it’s conceivable that they might’ve experimented with steam if that notion struck, say, the pharaoh.

aksss 6y ago
Smil’s book about Making the 20th Century has some good context for this type of discussion. Highly recommended if interested in how technical leaps happen.

samatman 6y ago

That's a conventional response with a lot of merit to it. But then I watch Clickspring recreating the Antikythera mechanism, and I wonder. Yes, there is a big leap between what is effectively clockwork and, say, making a pressure boiler. But I wonder: if Francis Bacon had been a student of Euclid and derived the scientific method in 3rd century BC Alexandria, and Rome had been better governed, devoting more energy to science and less to war, speed-walking the tech tree 1500 years early isn't impossible to contemplate. Fun to think about anyway!

macleginn 6y ago
As one of my uni professors said, if the Persians had not annihilated Miletus, the humanity would've walked on the Moon much sooner.
- FredPret 6y ago
  Really shows the value of protecting an enlightened state with a strong military. Science = long-term benefit, military = survival right now. I remember playing Master of Orion 2 with a pure science focus and getting my ass whipped every time. Then I realised that a good long term strategy needs to work around a good short-term strategy which enjoys priority. I switched to population and production focused games, and suddenly the “Impossible” AI was too easy.

trhway 6y ago

Romans had copper and that would be enough to run the Empire using the telegraph. They just didn't know about the electricity and how to make a voltaic pile in particular even though they had the sufficient technology.

SergeAx 6y ago
You would need pure zink (obtained in ~1750) and pure acid to implement voltac pile. You would need copper wire to implement telegraph.
- trhway 6y ago
  you don't need pure acid. Vinegar of high concentration would do great. >You would need pure zink (obtained in ~1750) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_metallurgy#Types_of_metal_used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_metallurgy#Types_of_meta... "By the height of the Roman Empire, metals in use included: silver, zinc, iron, mercury, arsenic, antimony, lead, gold, copper, tin" >You would need copper wire to implement telegraph copper is very pliable, so it is easy to make wires.
  - SergeAx 6y ago
    Zink was used by ancient Greeks and Romans in a brass alloy. Zink and copper are interchangeable in a crystal structure of brass, and are inseparable because of that. Obviously, brass is useless in voltac pile because of copper in it. I am not that sure about vinegar as a medium. I beleive it will lead to low voltage and weak power, rendering the pile useless for long distance transmission. The same applies to copper wire. You need steel to draw copper to make wire, otherwise wires will be short, need to be soldered and become ineffective for long distance. Also, telegraph lines are too easy to sabotage. Fire signals are much more reliable to rule ancient empire.

ouid 6y ago

Also worth mentioning that a lot of what is considered technology is actually mathematics.