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Speaking of joining the dots, did you know that both the train and steam power (albeit a toy version of it) were invented in ancient Egypt? Think what could ha

Speaking of joining the dots, did you know that both the train and steam power (albeit a toy version of it) were invented in ancient Egypt? Think what could have been had we joined those two dots in 2000BC instead of 17-1800 AD. I should note that their train was of course pulled by slaves and not a locomotive.

yetihehe 6y ago
They didn't have one important dot: cheap good steel or other durable materials. Steel for them was more expensive and hard to get than titanium now.
- VBprogrammer 6y ago
  This reminds me of the 2.8kg pyramid which sits atop the Washington Monument. At the time it was cast, it was the largest single casting of an exotic metal which cost more than silver, known to you and I as Aluminium.
  - FredPret 6y ago
    I think Napoleon had a set of aluminium cutlery... to show off his extreme wealth.
quickthrowman 6y ago
You need machine tools capable of tight tolerances and quality metals/alloys to make useable (for work) steam engines. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Abbasid, Persians, Europeans, etc all lacked these, thus no usable steam engines in antiquity/Middle Ages. Usable engines followed consistent quality metal production and machine tools pretty closely, it’s not like older people were just stupid, they didn’t have the technology necessary to create steam engines capable of real work. It’s like asking “Why wasn’t there a chess engine as good as stockfish for the PDP-11?” It simply wasn’t possible with the technology in 1970.
- FredPret 6y ago
  Good point regarding tooling, metal, and tolerances. But in this hypothetical timeline they would’ve hand-made the first leaky and inefficient engine if someone with some clout had the idea for a piston back then. These people didn’t blink at moving mountains to build burial crypts, so it’s conceivable that they might’ve experimented with steam if that notion struck, say, the pharaoh.
  - aksss 6y ago
    Smil’s book about Making the 20th Century has some good context for this type of discussion. Highly recommended if interested in how technical leaps happen.
- samatman 6y ago
  That's a conventional response with a lot of merit to it. But then I watch Clickspring recreating the Antikythera mechanism, and I wonder. Yes, there is a big leap between what is effectively clockwork and, say, making a pressure boiler. But I wonder: if Francis Bacon had been a student of Euclid and derived the scientific method in 3rd century BC Alexandria, and Rome had been better governed, devoting more energy to science and less to war, speed-walking the tech tree 1500 years early isn't impossible to contemplate. Fun to think about anyway!
  - macleginn 6y ago
    As one of my uni professors said, if the Persians had not annihilated Miletus, the humanity would've walked on the Moon much sooner.
    - FredPret 6y ago
      Really shows the value of protecting an enlightened state with a strong military. Science = long-term benefit, military = survival right now. I remember playing Master of Orion 2 with a pure science focus and getting my ass whipped every time. Then I realised that a good long term strategy needs to work around a good short-term strategy which enjoys priority. I switched to population and production focused games, and suddenly the “Impossible” AI was too easy.

yetihehe 6y ago

They didn't have one important dot: cheap good steel or other durable materials. Steel for them was more expensive and hard to get than titanium now.

VBprogrammer 6y ago
This reminds me of the 2.8kg pyramid which sits atop the Washington Monument. At the time it was cast, it was the largest single casting of an exotic metal which cost more than silver, known to you and I as Aluminium.
- FredPret 6y ago
  I think Napoleon had a set of aluminium cutlery... to show off his extreme wealth.

quickthrowman 6y ago

You need machine tools capable of tight tolerances and quality metals/alloys to make useable (for work) steam engines. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Abbasid, Persians, Europeans, etc all lacked these, thus no usable steam engines in antiquity/Middle Ages. Usable engines followed consistent quality metal production and machine tools pretty closely, it’s not like older people were just stupid, they didn’t have the technology necessary to create steam engines capable of real work. It’s like asking “Why wasn’t there a chess engine as good as stockfish for the PDP-11?” It simply wasn’t possible with the technology in 1970.

FredPret 6y ago
Good point regarding tooling, metal, and tolerances. But in this hypothetical timeline they would’ve hand-made the first leaky and inefficient engine if someone with some clout had the idea for a piston back then. These people didn’t blink at moving mountains to build burial crypts, so it’s conceivable that they might’ve experimented with steam if that notion struck, say, the pharaoh.
- aksss 6y ago
  Smil’s book about Making the 20th Century has some good context for this type of discussion. Highly recommended if interested in how technical leaps happen.
samatman 6y ago
That's a conventional response with a lot of merit to it. But then I watch Clickspring recreating the Antikythera mechanism, and I wonder. Yes, there is a big leap between what is effectively clockwork and, say, making a pressure boiler. But I wonder: if Francis Bacon had been a student of Euclid and derived the scientific method in 3rd century BC Alexandria, and Rome had been better governed, devoting more energy to science and less to war, speed-walking the tech tree 1500 years early isn't impossible to contemplate. Fun to think about anyway!
- macleginn 6y ago
  As one of my uni professors said, if the Persians had not annihilated Miletus, the humanity would've walked on the Moon much sooner.
  - FredPret 6y ago
    Really shows the value of protecting an enlightened state with a strong military. Science = long-term benefit, military = survival right now. I remember playing Master of Orion 2 with a pure science focus and getting my ass whipped every time. Then I realised that a good long term strategy needs to work around a good short-term strategy which enjoys priority. I switched to population and production focused games, and suddenly the “Impossible” AI was too easy.