3 ms·

To expand on this, Wagner's ability to combine variations of different motifs in different modes enabled him to construct sentences, if not entire chapters of p

To expand on this, Wagner's ability to combine variations of different motifs in different modes enabled him to construct sentences, if not entire chapters of plot and story by music alone. It's in part one of the reasons why Wagner's music is sometimes seen as impenetrable, as it demands a lot from you as a listener. This line of thinking is exemplified in this (purported) quote by Stravinsky: To listen is an effort, and just to hear is no merit. A duck hears also. Where this ability to listen is something that is developed gradually either via osmosis or study, which is one of the reasons why listeners of classical/jazz tend to be musicians and/or elderly people.

Freak_NL 6y ago
> […] which is one of the reasons why listeners of classical/jazz tend to be musicians and/or elderly people. That seems a stretch. Both classical music and jazz have a very wide appeal. Classical music sometimes carries the populistic stigma of being only for old folk or the elite, but that does not reflect its actual listenership. If anything, streaming music has made classical music more accessible — at least at an entry level of the more popular pieces. Listeners of the Ring cycle may very well be a much more exclusive club (this goes for opera in general), but classical music is part of many people's lives (my two year old son digs Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf).
- fredrikholm 6y ago
  I'm happy that you have a different experience (and that your son likes a classical piece), perhaps it's dependent on location and culture? I sang classical (opera, church choir) for just over ten years, and spent a lot of time with other musicians and attended many of their performances. When it came to classical, jazz or blues it was nearly always a vast majority of musicians and elderly in the crowd, with the occasional families with small children hanging around for a few minutes when the events were public/free/outdoor. For context, I am in my early thirties and live in Sweden (including Copenhagen here as well due to proximity).
  - Freak_NL 6y ago
    Oh for attending actual concerts in the flesh the demographics definitely skew towards elderly and people generally more into high-brow culture, you are right there. That is no different here in the Netherlands. But I don't think that reflects listenership very well. People listen to classical music for a variety of reasons; sometimes just to have some light chamber music to study or work with, or just to explore highlights perhaps heard in film or other popular media.
    - fredrikholm 6y ago
      Then I think we are in agreement! I have a tendency to slip into binary modes of thinking, drawing my previous conclusion based solely on my own experience rather than looking outwards. Thank you :)
cafard 6y ago
Well, I now count as elderly (or anyway eligible for Social Security), but I first went to an opera at the age of about 12. It was Cosi Fan Tutte, and I wouldn't argue with those who consider that Mozart requires less effort than Wagner.

Freak_NL 6y ago

> […] which is one of the reasons why listeners of classical/jazz tend to be musicians and/or elderly people. That seems a stretch. Both classical music and jazz have a very wide appeal. Classical music sometimes carries the populistic stigma of being only for old folk or the elite, but that does not reflect its actual listenership. If anything, streaming music has made classical music more accessible — at least at an entry level of the more popular pieces. Listeners of the Ring cycle may very well be a much more exclusive club (this goes for opera in general), but classical music is part of many people's lives (my two year old son digs Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf).

fredrikholm 6y ago
I'm happy that you have a different experience (and that your son likes a classical piece), perhaps it's dependent on location and culture? I sang classical (opera, church choir) for just over ten years, and spent a lot of time with other musicians and attended many of their performances. When it came to classical, jazz or blues it was nearly always a vast majority of musicians and elderly in the crowd, with the occasional families with small children hanging around for a few minutes when the events were public/free/outdoor. For context, I am in my early thirties and live in Sweden (including Copenhagen here as well due to proximity).
- Freak_NL 6y ago
  Oh for attending actual concerts in the flesh the demographics definitely skew towards elderly and people generally more into high-brow culture, you are right there. That is no different here in the Netherlands. But I don't think that reflects listenership very well. People listen to classical music for a variety of reasons; sometimes just to have some light chamber music to study or work with, or just to explore highlights perhaps heard in film or other popular media.
  - fredrikholm 6y ago
    Then I think we are in agreement! I have a tendency to slip into binary modes of thinking, drawing my previous conclusion based solely on my own experience rather than looking outwards. Thank you :)

cafard 6y ago

Well, I now count as elderly (or anyway eligible for Social Security), but I first went to an opera at the age of about 12. It was Cosi Fan Tutte, and I wouldn't argue with those who consider that Mozart requires less effort than Wagner.