5 ms·

Aside from Linus' reaction, there are some really interesting pearls in that thread, for example: Regarding code style[1]: > The more you make it look like (K

by scoutt 6y ago

Aside from Linus' reaction, there are some really interesting pearls in that thread, for example: Regarding code style[1]: > The more you make it look like (Kernel) C, the easier it is for us C people to actually read. My eyes have been reading C for almost 30 years by now, they have a lexer built in the optical nerve; reading something that looks vaguely like C but is definitely not C is an utterly painful experience. > You're asking to join us, not the other way around. I'm fine in a world without Rust. CoC was already brought into battle[2]: >> I could be mistaken but you seem angry. Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to read your own code of conduct, I don't think you need a browser for that either. > Welcome to LKML. CoC does not forbid human emotions just yet. Deal with it. These ([3] [4]) messages have an interesting perspective about maintenance. > I'm sure about one thing, the C bugs we have today will be fixable in 20 years. I'm not even sure the Rust code we'll merge today will still be compilable in 10 years nor will support the relevant architectures available by then, and probably this code will have to be rewritten in C to become maintained again. Linus wants to see a real, working kernel driver instead of Android Binder[5]: >Would there be some kind of real driver or something that people could use as a example of a real piece of code that actually does something meaningful? [1] https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/4/16/118 https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/4/16/118 [2] https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/4/16/143 https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/4/16/143 [3] https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/4/16/181 https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/4/16/181 [4] https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/4/16/283 https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/4/16/283 [5] https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/4/14/1091 https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/4/14/1091

wycy 6y ago
> The more you make it look like (Kernel) C, the easier it is for us C people to actually read. My eyes have been reading C for almost 30 years by now, they have a lexer built in the optical nerve; reading something that looks vaguely like C but is definitely not C is an utterly painful experience. I think he makes a good point about the fact that it's certainly possible the Rust code written today won't still compile in 10 years, but writing Rust in C-style seems like a terrible approach. Write using the idioms of the language used.
- alfonsodev 6y ago
  I agree, but if it helps creating more and better drivers, it might be a good thing considering the lifetime of the target hardware matches Rust lifetime.
- Hackbraten 6y ago
  > I think he makes a good point about the fact that it's certainly possible the Rust code written today won't still compile in 10 years It’s possible but unlikely. The Editions feature [1] has been specifically designed to provide longevity. [1]: https://doc.rust-lang.org/edition-guide/editions/index.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/edition-guide/editions/index.html
  - HelloNurse 6y ago
    Section 3.16 ("Platform and target support") of the linked document is so inadequate for Linux kernel related questions, such as "what compilation targets will be supported by this Rust Edition in 10 years", that there is nothing to quote to show it's inadequate. It doesn't even tell what compilation targets are supported right now.
    - steveklabnik 6y ago
      The canonical link for platform support is here: https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/rustc/platform-support.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/rustc/platform-support.html
      - HelloNurse 6y ago
        There is no commitment to keeping the platforms in tier 1, 2 or 3 for any length of time or to provide advance warning before platforms are degraded, not to mention that the tier 1 list is vastly insufficient (Arm64, x86, x86_64). Rustc is clearly meant to compile Rust applications and use for the Linux kernel, which from the point of view of this document would be narrower than tier 1, is highly experimental.
toyg 6y ago
From one of those posts: > I don't see how the two languages might coexist peacefully without rust toolchain being necessary for building any kernel useful in practice and anyone seriously involved in kernel development having to be proficient in both languages. I can empathise with that. Just last week I butted head with an issue in a python package that requires Rust internally. The lib compiles fine on its own, but something gets screwed when running in a virtualenv. Opened a bug in github, and nobody has any idea about how to get even a detailed log out of the rust toolchain. I'm sympathetic about Rust, I really am. But sprinkling it mindlessly everywhere is a big risk.
finnthehuman 6y ago
>>> I could be mistaken but you seem angry. Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to read your own code of conduct A passive-aggressive "you mad bro?" followed by namechecking the coc, all in service of doubling down on antagonizing someone over their choice in workflow? Good grief.
- bitwize 6y ago
  The CoC is working as designed.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  “CoC” seems to suffer from the same problem that “bad cops” and “zero tolerance” politicians seem to suffer from, so that's why it's often brought up. It seems to be a common thing that those that demand the strictest morality rules also seem to have the most aggression problems and often overstep their own rules, but typically have an excuse ready why in their case it's different. Though, perhaps it simply stands out more if it's one to chant “code of conduct” or “zero tolerance”, but as far as statistics in the Dutch parliament goes, it's often pointed out that all the parties that are in favor of lighter punishments and rehabilitation tend to be spot free, whereas politicians of parties that advocate harsh punishments and zero tolerance tend to very often have past criminal records themselves.
  - hlpq 6y ago
    Not sure why this is down-voted. At the very least the people who invoke the CoC are among the most pushy and dominant ones in projects, even when they manage to cloak the dominance so as not to be perceived to be aggressive. U.S. people are better at that game, since it is expected and rewarded in work life. This is also why they push for CoCs, which have nothing to do with manners or niceness, but are just another power tool. I have never seen a genuinely nice person push for a CoC. Not once.
    - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
      > Not sure why this is down-voted. What I just considered due to your post is that it's quite likely that those who support C.o.C.s are also more likely to cast votes. I think it quite likely that those with a libertarian life philosophy are far less likely to cast votes on websites in general, especially to voice disagreement. I concur that those who want enforced niceness seldom are nice themselves and tend to often have their reasons and excuses of why they are justified when they are not so nice.
bitwize 6y ago
Rust's strengths lie where Rust is written like Rust. If Linus wants C, he knows where to find it. Rust isn't for "C people" -- it's for their replacements.
- sanity31415 6y ago
  Winning friends and influencing people
ksec 6y ago
Oh I love this bit in [1] I've yet to see a program that renders HTML (including all the cruft often used in docs, which might include SVG graphics and whatnot) sanely in ASCII. Lynx does not qualify, it's output is atrocious crap. Yes, lynx lets you read HTML in ASCII, but at the cost of bleeding eyeballs and missing content. Nothing beats a sane ASCII document with possibly, where really needed some ASCII art. Sadly the whole kernel documentation project is moving away from that as well, which just means I'm back to working on an undocumented codebase. This rst crap they adopted is unreadable garbage.

by scoutt 6y ago

wycy 6y ago

> The more you make it look like (Kernel) C, the easier it is for us C people to actually read. My eyes have been reading C for almost 30 years by now, they have a lexer built in the optical nerve; reading something that looks vaguely like C but is definitely not C is an utterly painful experience. I think he makes a good point about the fact that it's certainly possible the Rust code written today won't still compile in 10 years, but writing Rust in C-style seems like a terrible approach. Write using the idioms of the language used.

alfonsodev 6y ago
I agree, but if it helps creating more and better drivers, it might be a good thing considering the lifetime of the target hardware matches Rust lifetime.
Hackbraten 6y ago
> I think he makes a good point about the fact that it's certainly possible the Rust code written today won't still compile in 10 years It’s possible but unlikely. The Editions feature [1] has been specifically designed to provide longevity. [1]: https://doc.rust-lang.org/edition-guide/editions/index.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/edition-guide/editions/index.html
- HelloNurse 6y ago
  Section 3.16 ("Platform and target support") of the linked document is so inadequate for Linux kernel related questions, such as "what compilation targets will be supported by this Rust Edition in 10 years", that there is nothing to quote to show it's inadequate. It doesn't even tell what compilation targets are supported right now.
  - steveklabnik 6y ago
    The canonical link for platform support is here: https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/rustc/platform-support.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/rustc/platform-support.html
    - HelloNurse 6y ago
      There is no commitment to keeping the platforms in tier 1, 2 or 3 for any length of time or to provide advance warning before platforms are degraded, not to mention that the tier 1 list is vastly insufficient (Arm64, x86, x86_64). Rustc is clearly meant to compile Rust applications and use for the Linux kernel, which from the point of view of this document would be narrower than tier 1, is highly experimental.

toyg 6y ago

From one of those posts: > I don't see how the two languages might coexist peacefully without rust toolchain being necessary for building any kernel useful in practice and anyone seriously involved in kernel development having to be proficient in both languages. I can empathise with that. Just last week I butted head with an issue in a python package that requires Rust internally. The lib compiles fine on its own, but something gets screwed when running in a virtualenv. Opened a bug in github, and nobody has any idea about how to get even a detailed log out of the rust toolchain. I'm sympathetic about Rust, I really am. But sprinkling it mindlessly everywhere is a big risk.

finnthehuman 6y ago

>>> I could be mistaken but you seem angry. Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to read your own code of conduct A passive-aggressive "you mad bro?" followed by namechecking the coc, all in service of doubling down on antagonizing someone over their choice in workflow? Good grief.

bitwize 6y ago
The CoC is working as designed.
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
“CoC” seems to suffer from the same problem that “bad cops” and “zero tolerance” politicians seem to suffer from, so that's why it's often brought up. It seems to be a common thing that those that demand the strictest morality rules also seem to have the most aggression problems and often overstep their own rules, but typically have an excuse ready why in their case it's different. Though, perhaps it simply stands out more if it's one to chant “code of conduct” or “zero tolerance”, but as far as statistics in the Dutch parliament goes, it's often pointed out that all the parties that are in favor of lighter punishments and rehabilitation tend to be spot free, whereas politicians of parties that advocate harsh punishments and zero tolerance tend to very often have past criminal records themselves.
- hlpq 6y ago
  Not sure why this is down-voted. At the very least the people who invoke the CoC are among the most pushy and dominant ones in projects, even when they manage to cloak the dominance so as not to be perceived to be aggressive. U.S. people are better at that game, since it is expected and rewarded in work life. This is also why they push for CoCs, which have nothing to do with manners or niceness, but are just another power tool. I have never seen a genuinely nice person push for a CoC. Not once.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    > Not sure why this is down-voted. What I just considered due to your post is that it's quite likely that those who support C.o.C.s are also more likely to cast votes. I think it quite likely that those with a libertarian life philosophy are far less likely to cast votes on websites in general, especially to voice disagreement. I concur that those who want enforced niceness seldom are nice themselves and tend to often have their reasons and excuses of why they are justified when they are not so nice.

bitwize 6y ago

Rust's strengths lie where Rust is written like Rust. If Linus wants C, he knows where to find it. Rust isn't for "C people" -- it's for their replacements.

sanity31415 6y ago
Winning friends and influencing people

ksec 6y ago

Oh I love this bit in [1] I've yet to see a program that renders HTML (including all the cruft often used in docs, which might include SVG graphics and whatnot) sanely in ASCII. Lynx does not qualify, it's output is atrocious crap. Yes, lynx lets you read HTML in ASCII, but at the cost of bleeding eyeballs and missing content. Nothing beats a sane ASCII document with possibly, where really needed some ASCII art. Sadly the whole kernel documentation project is moving away from that as well, which just means I'm back to working on an undocumented codebase. This rst crap they adopted is unreadable garbage.