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WebKit on iOS has special sandbox privileges not available to other user frameworks. I think it allows it to spawn other processes, and do special stuff to incr

by zffr 6y ago

WebKit on iOS has special sandbox privileges not available to other user frameworks. I think it allows it to spawn other processes, and do special stuff to increase its performance and decrease energy consumption. It seems like an engineering challenge to expose these features to arbitrary 3rd party frameworks in a way that doesn’t allow these features to be abused. Not sure of Apple’s full motives, but I think this is at least part of the reason other rendering engines are not supported.

traib 6y ago
> WebKit on iOS has special sandbox privileges not available to other user frameworks. Okay so WebKit cannot be used as is, but then why forbid other alternatives [1]? Seems like a Catch-22. > It seems like an engineering challenge to expose these features to arbitrary 3rd party frameworks in a way that doesn’t allow these features to be abused. How does literally every single other platform manage this? AFAIK none of Android, Windows, the many Unix-like OSs, even Apple's MacOs have such restrictions on browser apps. And I think it'd be unfair to characterize the users of those other platforms as being "abused" by their browser apps. E.g. Firefox seems pretty trustworthy. [1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ - "2.5.6 Apps that browse the web must use the appropriate WebKit framework and WebKit Javascript."
- robbiemitchell 6y ago
  What prohibited browsers are you referring to?
  - traib 6y ago
    I was mainly referring to how every browser app on iOS is forced have Safari underneath. The wiki page on Firefox for iOS [1] mentions this in some detail - it cannot use Gecko like it does on desktop and Android, it must use WebKit instead. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_for_iOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_for_iOS
    - fingerlocks 6y ago
      This is a technical detail most people don’t care about. You still get all the competing browsers with all their specific features on iOS, regardless of the rendering engine.
      - cma 6y ago
        I believe due to webkit no browsers are allowed to do full screen with multitouch. It is possible this only affects Safari and Chrome and isn't a webkit limitation, I haven't tested Firefox.
      - gorbypark 6y ago
        All non-Safari browsers on iOS use the Safari engine underneath, which doesn't currently support WebRTC. It's a pretty huge blocker for a lot of sites (video conferencing, etc) to have to throw up a "Please use Safari" banner for iOS users using anything other than Safari.
        heavyset_go 6y ago
        It also doesn't support Web APIs that Chrome and Firefox have supported for 8+ years now.
- zepto 6y ago
  > How does literally every single other platform manage this? AFAIK none of Android, Windows, the many Unix-like OSs, even Apple's MacOs have such restrictions on browser apps. They don’t. All of those platforms are less secure than iOS.
  - traib 6y ago
    > All of those platforms are less secure than iOS. Do you have a source for this statement, specifically in relation to browsers? Let's consider Android. I wouldn't automatically assume that using Safari on iOS is more (or less) secure than using Chrome or Firefox on Android - they are all provided by well known tech companies with years of expertise building browsers and a focus on security.
    - zepto 6y ago
      Android is definitely less secure than iOS, you can easily verify this by googling. Controlling the execution environment is part of iOS’s defense in depth strategy. Focussing on browsers alone is a red herring. You have to look at the whole system. It’s true that Google or Mozilla may be able to produce an equivalent level of security in a browser engine, but that’s a false comparison, since alternative browsers are not limited to just these companies.
      - jonny_eh 6y ago
        > Android is definitely less secure than iOS, you can easily verify this by googling. You can also verify that the world is run by lizard people by googling.
      - tick_tock_tick 6y ago
        iOS still runs main parts of its text rendering in kernel space. It is by definition less secure than almost any other operating system.
        zepto 6y ago
Jochim 6y ago
That's precisely the problem though. Apple have been allowed to extend privileges to their own applications that that their competition are explicitly prohibited from using.

by zffr 6y ago

traib 6y ago

> WebKit on iOS has special sandbox privileges not available to other user frameworks. Okay so WebKit cannot be used as is, but then why forbid other alternatives [1]? Seems like a Catch-22. > It seems like an engineering challenge to expose these features to arbitrary 3rd party frameworks in a way that doesn’t allow these features to be abused. How does literally every single other platform manage this? AFAIK none of Android, Windows, the many Unix-like OSs, even Apple's MacOs have such restrictions on browser apps. And I think it'd be unfair to characterize the users of those other platforms as being "abused" by their browser apps. E.g. Firefox seems pretty trustworthy. [1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ - "2.5.6 Apps that browse the web must use the appropriate WebKit framework and WebKit Javascript."

robbiemitchell 6y ago
What prohibited browsers are you referring to?
- traib 6y ago
  I was mainly referring to how every browser app on iOS is forced have Safari underneath. The wiki page on Firefox for iOS [1] mentions this in some detail - it cannot use Gecko like it does on desktop and Android, it must use WebKit instead. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_for_iOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_for_iOS
  - fingerlocks 6y ago
    This is a technical detail most people don’t care about. You still get all the competing browsers with all their specific features on iOS, regardless of the rendering engine.
    - cma 6y ago
      I believe due to webkit no browsers are allowed to do full screen with multitouch. It is possible this only affects Safari and Chrome and isn't a webkit limitation, I haven't tested Firefox.
    - gorbypark 6y ago
      All non-Safari browsers on iOS use the Safari engine underneath, which doesn't currently support WebRTC. It's a pretty huge blocker for a lot of sites (video conferencing, etc) to have to throw up a "Please use Safari" banner for iOS users using anything other than Safari.
      - heavyset_go 6y ago
        It also doesn't support Web APIs that Chrome and Firefox have supported for 8+ years now.
zepto 6y ago
> How does literally every single other platform manage this? AFAIK none of Android, Windows, the many Unix-like OSs, even Apple's MacOs have such restrictions on browser apps. They don’t. All of those platforms are less secure than iOS.
- traib 6y ago
  > All of those platforms are less secure than iOS. Do you have a source for this statement, specifically in relation to browsers? Let's consider Android. I wouldn't automatically assume that using Safari on iOS is more (or less) secure than using Chrome or Firefox on Android - they are all provided by well known tech companies with years of expertise building browsers and a focus on security.
  - zepto 6y ago
    Android is definitely less secure than iOS, you can easily verify this by googling. Controlling the execution environment is part of iOS’s defense in depth strategy. Focussing on browsers alone is a red herring. You have to look at the whole system. It’s true that Google or Mozilla may be able to produce an equivalent level of security in a browser engine, but that’s a false comparison, since alternative browsers are not limited to just these companies.
    - jonny_eh 6y ago
      > Android is definitely less secure than iOS, you can easily verify this by googling. You can also verify that the world is run by lizard people by googling.
    - tick_tock_tick 6y ago
      iOS still runs main parts of its text rendering in kernel space. It is by definition less secure than almost any other operating system.
      - zepto 6y ago

Jochim 6y ago

That's precisely the problem though. Apple have been allowed to extend privileges to their own applications that that their competition are explicitly prohibited from using.