4 ms·

Lets continue that discussion when Israel is no longer an apartheid state ?

by phkamp 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gnfargbl 5y ago
I don't want to get involved in the actual argument, but I find the dynamics of it fascinating. On one side, vogon_laureate appears to want phkemp to acknowledge that he understands that the Venn diagram of Jews and Zionists is not a circle. On the other side, phkemp would like vogon_laureate to accept that political criticism of Israel is not automatically anti-Semitic. Both of these seem, to me, to be somewhat reasonable points that should not be hard to agree on. What prevents this?
- vogon_laureate 5y ago
  That's not quite right. The vast majority of Jews are Zionists. Zionism is just the belief in the right of Jews to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. Whether or not someone is a Zionist, shouldn't have any bearing on whether they deserve racism which is PHK's defence. He believes that Jews can deservedly be hated because of Israel and can be held "collectively in contempt"(his words).
  - gnfargbl 5y ago
    I apologize for the misunderstanding, I was clumsy. Would it be accurate to say that you're looking for a clarification that "the Jews" and "the state of Israel" aren't synonyms?
    - vogon_laureate 5y ago
      The issue is that some of PHK's most controversial 'outbursts' show that he thinks it's OK to hate Jews as a collective because of Israel.
      - gnfargbl 5y ago
        The reason I find the topic fascinating is that the semantics seem to obliterate the discussion before it can really begin. I'm assuming that from PHK's point of view, he casually used "the Jews" as a identity for "Israel". That's crass and wrong, but as another white European I'm ashamed to say that it is something that I might have also done before I was given the opportunity to learn a little more about the topic. I'm assuming that from your point of view, the language PHK used, with the history irremediably attached to it, is presumably just such obvious anti-Semitic racism, perhaps being so similar to language that you've certainly heard several times before, that you feel compelled to call it out as such. And so, here we are: unable to discuss the topic because the language is constructed from hand-grenades. By the time we have recognized them as such, our hands are already missing.
        phkamp 5y ago
        I think your last paragraph sums it up very well.
        gnfargbl 5y ago
        Thank you. At the risk of getting involved in the discussion in the way I said above I did not want to, I feel I have to point out that "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel" is usually explicitly defined as anti-Semitic[1]. You do now rather seem to be missing an opportunity to clarify your views on the topic. [1] https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-defin...
        phkamp 5y ago
        You think I'm stupid enough to try juggling handgrenades in Israels info-war minefield again ?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- phkamp 5y ago
  I fully agree that the Venn diagram is not a circle. But given that any slight, no matter how insignificant, no matter against which part of the Venn diagram it was directed, invariably gets labeled "antisemitic", I think people like me can be excused if we express ourselves with less exacting clarity, than the people in the Venn diagram demands. If the people in the Venn diagram think the distinctions are very important, a good place to start is to use very distinct colors.
  - vogon_laureate 5y ago
    Poul struggles with the concept that imposing certain conditionalities on whole groups of people before deciding if they are deserving of basic protections from racism is, er, racist.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    That's not what's happened here. You used the word "Jew" to describe "citizens of Israel". You have to know that those two words don't mean the same thing, and the history of extrapolating accusations to all Jewish people. The distinction between the two terms is straightforward, and hardly a "hand grenade" as you suggest downthread. I'm struck that you haven't at any point simply said "I misspoke". Did you? This whole subject is a weird tangent from the original post we're discussing, but you seem on this thread to have managed to double down on what you said in 2019. That's hard to ignore.
dash2 5y ago
That is a phony argument. You blamed all Jews for Israel's actions. That was antisemitic. You don't need to wait for Israel to become better before admitting that. Many people have criticized Israel, sometimes very harshly, without needing to say things like "I hold Jews collectively in contempt". Your blog post on the matter [1] would have looked more dignified if you'd said "I was wrong" not just "I didn't express myself artfully". [1] http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/ http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/

Lets continue that discussion when Israel is no longer an apartheid state ?

by phkamp 5y ago

Lets continue that discussion when Israel is no longer an apartheid state ?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

gnfargbl 5y ago

I don't want to get involved in the actual argument, but I find the dynamics of it fascinating. On one side, vogon_laureate appears to want phkemp to acknowledge that he understands that the Venn diagram of Jews and Zionists is not a circle. On the other side, phkemp would like vogon_laureate to accept that political criticism of Israel is not automatically anti-Semitic. Both of these seem, to me, to be somewhat reasonable points that should not be hard to agree on. What prevents this?

vogon_laureate 5y ago
That's not quite right. The vast majority of Jews are Zionists. Zionism is just the belief in the right of Jews to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. Whether or not someone is a Zionist, shouldn't have any bearing on whether they deserve racism which is PHK's defence. He believes that Jews can deservedly be hated because of Israel and can be held "collectively in contempt"(his words).
- gnfargbl 5y ago
  I apologize for the misunderstanding, I was clumsy. Would it be accurate to say that you're looking for a clarification that "the Jews" and "the state of Israel" aren't synonyms?
  - vogon_laureate 5y ago
    The issue is that some of PHK's most controversial 'outbursts' show that he thinks it's OK to hate Jews as a collective because of Israel.
    - gnfargbl 5y ago
      The reason I find the topic fascinating is that the semantics seem to obliterate the discussion before it can really begin. I'm assuming that from PHK's point of view, he casually used "the Jews" as a identity for "Israel". That's crass and wrong, but as another white European I'm ashamed to say that it is something that I might have also done before I was given the opportunity to learn a little more about the topic. I'm assuming that from your point of view, the language PHK used, with the history irremediably attached to it, is presumably just such obvious anti-Semitic racism, perhaps being so similar to language that you've certainly heard several times before, that you feel compelled to call it out as such. And so, here we are: unable to discuss the topic because the language is constructed from hand-grenades. By the time we have recognized them as such, our hands are already missing.
      - phkamp 5y ago
        I think your last paragraph sums it up very well.
        gnfargbl 5y ago
        Thank you. At the risk of getting involved in the discussion in the way I said above I did not want to, I feel I have to point out that "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel" is usually explicitly defined as anti-Semitic[1]. You do now rather seem to be missing an opportunity to clarify your views on the topic. [1] https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-defin...
        phkamp 5y ago
        You think I'm stupid enough to try juggling handgrenades in Israels info-war minefield again ?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
phkamp 5y ago
I fully agree that the Venn diagram is not a circle. But given that any slight, no matter how insignificant, no matter against which part of the Venn diagram it was directed, invariably gets labeled "antisemitic", I think people like me can be excused if we express ourselves with less exacting clarity, than the people in the Venn diagram demands. If the people in the Venn diagram think the distinctions are very important, a good place to start is to use very distinct colors.
- vogon_laureate 5y ago
  Poul struggles with the concept that imposing certain conditionalities on whole groups of people before deciding if they are deserving of basic protections from racism is, er, racist.
- tptacek 5y ago
  That's not what's happened here. You used the word "Jew" to describe "citizens of Israel". You have to know that those two words don't mean the same thing, and the history of extrapolating accusations to all Jewish people. The distinction between the two terms is straightforward, and hardly a "hand grenade" as you suggest downthread. I'm struck that you haven't at any point simply said "I misspoke". Did you? This whole subject is a weird tangent from the original post we're discussing, but you seem on this thread to have managed to double down on what you said in 2019. That's hard to ignore.

dash2 5y ago

That is a phony argument. You blamed all Jews for Israel's actions. That was antisemitic. You don't need to wait for Israel to become better before admitting that. Many people have criticized Israel, sometimes very harshly, without needing to say things like "I hold Jews collectively in contempt". Your blog post on the matter [1] would have looked more dignified if you'd said "I was wrong" not just "I didn't express myself artfully". [1] http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/ http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/