6 ms·

You're not using Firefox, you're using Safari with another skin. Browser engines other than Apple-approved Safari/WebKit are illegal on Apple platforms, effecti

You're not using Firefox, you're using Safari with another skin. Browser engines other than Apple-approved Safari/WebKit are illegal on Apple platforms, effectively rendering it the biggest blocker for the web right now (no PWAs, no push notifications, no offline support, no support for free audio codecs, extensions ... and the list goes on!)

Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
I wouldn't bury your flag on this argument. Many users don't care about that stuff, and Apple is winning the privacy war through decisions like these.
- capableweb 6y ago
  Doesn't matter what users care about, what matters is: "Is Apple abusing their position in the market?" One could claim since Apple IS the iOS market, for them to disallow competitors in certain app categories but not others, they are indeed abusing their position as a market owner, especially since they are the only one allowed (by them) to develop a browser engine.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
    That claim is moot if you can't prove articulable harm that is in excess of the articulable benefits.
- pojntfx 6y ago
  Well, the alternative to PWAs is publishing through proprietary app stores - the users might not care to much, but it's incredibly important for us as devs. Also, one really can't trust a proprietary browser like Safari with their personal data - while one might be able to switch from Chrome due to FLOC on Android, Linux, Windows etc., Safari would _force_ the change on their users, with them being unable to switch to anything but the "officially approved" browser.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - mr_toad 6y ago
    > Well, the alternative to PWAs is publishing through proprietary app stores This is what PWA really boils down to isn’t it. It’s not about standards or openness it’s about money. It’s about bypassing the App Store to do whatever the fuck you want.
  - spideymans 6y ago
    I’d hate to see the mobile landscape dominated by web apps the way the desktop is. PWAs benefit developers, but I’ve yet to see how they improve my UX as an end user (when compared to native)
  - HWR_14 6y ago
    As a user and as a dev I have strong opinions about PWAs. I'm not a fan. If I want to visit a website, I'll use a browser to go to a website. As to your other point, yes if Safari started doing anti-privacy things, I would ditch the iPhone and go Android. Right now, they seem to be supporting my privacy.
- izacus 6y ago
  Users also "didn't care" about using Internet Explorer in the Microsoft days and the browser market was STILL severely handicapped with their monopolistic abuse. Same goes for Apple - with no ability to build an alternative browser engine the market IS handicapped, especially since Apple is abusing this restriction to prevent web applications from competing with applications from which they charge tax on every single monetary transaction.
  - sbuk 6y ago
    The difference here of course is that Microsoft we’re shown to be threatening to withdraw OEMs licenses if they provided Netscape preinstalled. They also threatened the same if OEMs provided alternative OSS such as Linux. Apple on the other hand are preventing alternative rendering engines. It’s a very different situation. That’s not to say that it isn’t problematic, but it not as simple or as cut and dried as “but Microsoft and IE!?!”
    - izacus 6y ago
      It's actually even simpler - Apple doesn't even open an option to even have any kind of threats for withdrawing licenses because they own everything and use hard DRM to prevent any alternatives.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
    Call me stupid, but what exists on android that users on iOS are begging for that only exists on android because of the "freedom" of the platform. I'd like to take a moment to say that android is just handicapped because I can't run a different OS, or screw around in the OS and change things to my whims. But no ones talking about that, why not?
    - nmfisher 6y ago
      > Call me stupid, but what exists on android that users on iOS are begging for that only exists on android because of the "freedom" of the platform. Right now, Fortnite.
- risyachka 6y ago
  Where do you draw a line between abusing and feature? If Apple didn't position itself as privacy-focused, then not allowing other browsers would be clearly violation, but if this is basically part of the product description - and many people buy iPhones in the first place because they don't want or case about other browsers - they want safety - why should Apple be forced to do it?
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
    >Where do you draw a line between abusing and feature? When there's articulable harm. Microsoft forcing the junk that was IE, and all their other thuggish tactics, is articulable. The differences between chrome and safari are insignificant enough that you'll bore most people when trying to superficially explain how pretty much the only people negatively effected are advertisers, who have been avoiding their public reckoning over the straight up horrific things they do in closed rooms. Maybe I'm wrong and there are consumers that harmed by the lack of chrome or Firefox on ios, but that'd be news to me.
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      Maybe I'm wrong and there are consumers that harmed by the lack of chrome or Firefox on ios Well, developers of modern web apps can offer a qualitatively better experience on those other platforms in some ways than they can with iOS Safari. The offline working features are one clear example. The use of open (=> cheaper and sometimes better-performing) standards for things like audio and video content is another. Unless you contend that the only reason any web developer ever uses the features available in other browsers but not iOS Safari is to abuse or exploit users, in other words that no-one is (or would, if Apple supported them) make any legitimate use of those features that would improve the user's experience in some way, it is clear that users are materially disadvantaged by the limitations of iOS Safari, unless they have the choice to use another browser that does offer those features instead.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  Many users don't care about that stuff Users don't object to a lot of things when either they aren't aware of them or they believe they can't do anything about them. That doesn't mean they aren't still being harmed.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago

I wouldn't bury your flag on this argument. Many users don't care about that stuff, and Apple is winning the privacy war through decisions like these.

capableweb 6y ago
Doesn't matter what users care about, what matters is: "Is Apple abusing their position in the market?" One could claim since Apple IS the iOS market, for them to disallow competitors in certain app categories but not others, they are indeed abusing their position as a market owner, especially since they are the only one allowed (by them) to develop a browser engine.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  That claim is moot if you can't prove articulable harm that is in excess of the articulable benefits.
pojntfx 6y ago
Well, the alternative to PWAs is publishing through proprietary app stores - the users might not care to much, but it's incredibly important for us as devs. Also, one really can't trust a proprietary browser like Safari with their personal data - while one might be able to switch from Chrome due to FLOC on Android, Linux, Windows etc., Safari would _force_ the change on their users, with them being unable to switch to anything but the "officially approved" browser.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mr_toad 6y ago
  > Well, the alternative to PWAs is publishing through proprietary app stores This is what PWA really boils down to isn’t it. It’s not about standards or openness it’s about money. It’s about bypassing the App Store to do whatever the fuck you want.
- spideymans 6y ago
  I’d hate to see the mobile landscape dominated by web apps the way the desktop is. PWAs benefit developers, but I’ve yet to see how they improve my UX as an end user (when compared to native)
- HWR_14 6y ago
  As a user and as a dev I have strong opinions about PWAs. I'm not a fan. If I want to visit a website, I'll use a browser to go to a website. As to your other point, yes if Safari started doing anti-privacy things, I would ditch the iPhone and go Android. Right now, they seem to be supporting my privacy.
izacus 6y ago
Users also "didn't care" about using Internet Explorer in the Microsoft days and the browser market was STILL severely handicapped with their monopolistic abuse. Same goes for Apple - with no ability to build an alternative browser engine the market IS handicapped, especially since Apple is abusing this restriction to prevent web applications from competing with applications from which they charge tax on every single monetary transaction.
- sbuk 6y ago
  The difference here of course is that Microsoft we’re shown to be threatening to withdraw OEMs licenses if they provided Netscape preinstalled. They also threatened the same if OEMs provided alternative OSS such as Linux. Apple on the other hand are preventing alternative rendering engines. It’s a very different situation. That’s not to say that it isn’t problematic, but it not as simple or as cut and dried as “but Microsoft and IE!?!”
  - izacus 6y ago
    It's actually even simpler - Apple doesn't even open an option to even have any kind of threats for withdrawing licenses because they own everything and use hard DRM to prevent any alternatives.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  Call me stupid, but what exists on android that users on iOS are begging for that only exists on android because of the "freedom" of the platform. I'd like to take a moment to say that android is just handicapped because I can't run a different OS, or screw around in the OS and change things to my whims. But no ones talking about that, why not?
  - nmfisher 6y ago
    > Call me stupid, but what exists on android that users on iOS are begging for that only exists on android because of the "freedom" of the platform. Right now, Fortnite.
risyachka 6y ago
Where do you draw a line between abusing and feature? If Apple didn't position itself as privacy-focused, then not allowing other browsers would be clearly violation, but if this is basically part of the product description - and many people buy iPhones in the first place because they don't want or case about other browsers - they want safety - why should Apple be forced to do it?
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  >Where do you draw a line between abusing and feature? When there's articulable harm. Microsoft forcing the junk that was IE, and all their other thuggish tactics, is articulable. The differences between chrome and safari are insignificant enough that you'll bore most people when trying to superficially explain how pretty much the only people negatively effected are advertisers, who have been avoiding their public reckoning over the straight up horrific things they do in closed rooms. Maybe I'm wrong and there are consumers that harmed by the lack of chrome or Firefox on ios, but that'd be news to me.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    Maybe I'm wrong and there are consumers that harmed by the lack of chrome or Firefox on ios Well, developers of modern web apps can offer a qualitatively better experience on those other platforms in some ways than they can with iOS Safari. The offline working features are one clear example. The use of open (=> cheaper and sometimes better-performing) standards for things like audio and video content is another. Unless you contend that the only reason any web developer ever uses the features available in other browsers but not iOS Safari is to abuse or exploit users, in other words that no-one is (or would, if Apple supported them) make any legitimate use of those features that would improve the user's experience in some way, it is clear that users are materially disadvantaged by the limitations of iOS Safari, unless they have the choice to use another browser that does offer those features instead.
Silhouette 6y ago
Many users don't care about that stuff Users don't object to a lot of things when either they aren't aware of them or they believe they can't do anything about them. That doesn't mean they aren't still being harmed.