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But not Rust. And Go is better if you do I/O. That's my points. Compromises. I'm not saying "Java is bad". I'm saying, "I have no use case where I, personall

But not Rust. And Go is better if you do I/O. That's my points. Compromises. I'm not saying "Java is bad". I'm saying, "I have no use case where I, personally, would use Java over something else." I do know other people have use cases for it. I just don't, because those compromises don't make sense for me.

pjmlp 6y ago
Where is Rust AWT? Not to mention Swing, JavaFX, or even an whole mobile ecosystem.
- BiteCode_dev 6y ago
  Well, if we create a desktop app, the Python + C bindings will be a better choice for my own project. Easier to dev, equivalent perfs, equivalent libs (and the QT Rad is excellent). Java does have android right now, although it has to share with ReactNative, Xamarin and flutter. Again, for different compromises.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    So apparently Rust isn't that better than. Java also has the IDE ecosystem between Netbeans, Eclipse and all JetBrains offerings, with exception of Apple and Microsoft offerings.
    - BiteCode_dev 6y ago
      It's not a matter of better. The original comment is all about what compromises work for me, and why I don't have a use case for Java. You are trying to move the debate toward the quality of java, which is was never my point.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        Not at all, I though your point was how Rust and Go are a much better option. > If I do, I won't go Java, I will choose something that is built for performance. Python is good enough for 99% of my performances need. The last 1%, jumping to java is not a big difference, I'll use rust or go. So given that, I am curious where are those GUI alternatives with the required perfomance in Go and Rust.
        BiteCode_dev 6y ago
        So you are in the very niche use case where: - you need a GUI - you need perf beyond what Python is capable and you identified it clearly in advance - you can't use numpy / multiprocessing / cython, pypy or they won't give you the perf you need - you can't find a main hotpath you can optimize with a 5 lines c or rust extension and write 99.99% of your app in python. Or you don't want to bother. If you ever find yourself in this very use case, then yes, use Java. But I never found myself in this very precise use case.
        for_xyz 6y ago
        No, he is in need of writing production quality software together with his medium to big sized dev team and he doesn't want to introduce maintenance burden into his project 10 years from now. Software will get improved during it's lifetime and not overwritten from scratch every 2 years.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        With external contractors arriving to work on a foreign code base just for a couple of Jira tickets as per department budget.
        JAlexoid 6y ago
        > multiprocessing Please.... That's literally the worst option for python on this planet. For all "just do multiprocessing" the tooling is horrible garbage. Then we get to Twisted and Gunicorn the Spring Framework of Python world.
- michaelt 6y ago
  To be fair, even people deep in the Java ecosystem don't like its desktop application/GUI support. Its only saving grace is that all other cross-platform GUI systems also suck, and if you're doing everything else in Java it might be the path of least resistance.
  - kaba0 6y ago
    For ordinary desktop apps, javafx is quite good. It’s a hidden gem in the ecosystem. (Though I haven’t tried its mobile “backend”)
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Only the people that are too lazy to actually learn how to do it properly, "Filthy Rich Clients" by the nowadays Android UI architects http://filthyrichclients.org/ http://filthyrichclients.org/ "Swing Hacks: Tips and Tools for Killer GUIs" by Joshua Marinacci, well know in the UI research community https://www.amazon.de/dp/0596009070 https://www.amazon.de/dp/0596009070 And then commercial libraries like http://www.jgoodies.com/ http://www.jgoodies.com/

pjmlp 6y ago

Where is Rust AWT? Not to mention Swing, JavaFX, or even an whole mobile ecosystem.

BiteCode_dev 6y ago
Well, if we create a desktop app, the Python + C bindings will be a better choice for my own project. Easier to dev, equivalent perfs, equivalent libs (and the QT Rad is excellent). Java does have android right now, although it has to share with ReactNative, Xamarin and flutter. Again, for different compromises.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  So apparently Rust isn't that better than. Java also has the IDE ecosystem between Netbeans, Eclipse and all JetBrains offerings, with exception of Apple and Microsoft offerings.
  - BiteCode_dev 6y ago
    It's not a matter of better. The original comment is all about what compromises work for me, and why I don't have a use case for Java. You are trying to move the debate toward the quality of java, which is was never my point.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Not at all, I though your point was how Rust and Go are a much better option. > If I do, I won't go Java, I will choose something that is built for performance. Python is good enough for 99% of my performances need. The last 1%, jumping to java is not a big difference, I'll use rust or go. So given that, I am curious where are those GUI alternatives with the required perfomance in Go and Rust.
      - BiteCode_dev 6y ago
        So you are in the very niche use case where: - you need a GUI - you need perf beyond what Python is capable and you identified it clearly in advance - you can't use numpy / multiprocessing / cython, pypy or they won't give you the perf you need - you can't find a main hotpath you can optimize with a 5 lines c or rust extension and write 99.99% of your app in python. Or you don't want to bother. If you ever find yourself in this very use case, then yes, use Java. But I never found myself in this very precise use case.
        for_xyz 6y ago
        No, he is in need of writing production quality software together with his medium to big sized dev team and he doesn't want to introduce maintenance burden into his project 10 years from now. Software will get improved during it's lifetime and not overwritten from scratch every 2 years.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        With external contractors arriving to work on a foreign code base just for a couple of Jira tickets as per department budget.
        JAlexoid 6y ago
        > multiprocessing Please.... That's literally the worst option for python on this planet. For all "just do multiprocessing" the tooling is horrible garbage. Then we get to Twisted and Gunicorn the Spring Framework of Python world.
michaelt 6y ago
To be fair, even people deep in the Java ecosystem don't like its desktop application/GUI support. Its only saving grace is that all other cross-platform GUI systems also suck, and if you're doing everything else in Java it might be the path of least resistance.
- kaba0 6y ago
  For ordinary desktop apps, javafx is quite good. It’s a hidden gem in the ecosystem. (Though I haven’t tried its mobile “backend”)
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Only the people that are too lazy to actually learn how to do it properly, "Filthy Rich Clients" by the nowadays Android UI architects http://filthyrichclients.org/ http://filthyrichclients.org/ "Swing Hacks: Tips and Tools for Killer GUIs" by Joshua Marinacci, well know in the UI research community https://www.amazon.de/dp/0596009070 https://www.amazon.de/dp/0596009070 And then commercial libraries like http://www.jgoodies.com/ http://www.jgoodies.com/