7 ms·

New Zealand aims to create smoke-free generation

62 points by edward 6y ago

refurb 6y ago
Excellent. We all know how well prohibition works.
- xupybd 6y ago
  We are also looking to legalize marijuana. I'm not weighing in on either side but I don't see how you can do both.
  - detritus 6y ago
    Cigarettes are specifically designed to get you hooked, whereas pot isn't.
    - Udik 6y ago
      And with what are you smoking it? Pure?
      - CamTin 6y ago
        I assume you're asking because people around you tend to smoke spliffs rolled from hash and tobacco. I know this is common in Europe at least, but in the US (and probably elsewhere) it's relatively uncommon and smoking just cannabis flower is overwhelmingly more popular.
    - throwaway8581 6y ago
      This is not true. Cigarettes are addictive because the nicotine in tobacco leaves is addictive, not because they are “specifically designed” to be addictive. They are designed to deliver tobacco smoke, which is addictive.
      - colejohnson66 6y ago
        Over the many decades, it’s come out that it’s not just the nicotine, but many other additives that are also addictive. The reason is simple: the tobacco companies have an interest in keeping you a customer. Whether that’s a cigarette or vaping flavors, they’ll do it.
    - throwaway8581 6y ago
      I know plenty of people who have thrown away their entire potential to smoking weed. Smart, young people who instead of developing their skills, making friends, doing well in school, advancing their career, and dating, just sit around and get stoned all day. In my mind, the effects of weed are worse than tobacco. Sure, cigarettes will kill you at 60, but weed will turn you into a lifelong loser at 15.
      - Flatcircle 6y ago
        Very underrated point. We’ve all seen this, don’t know why there’s some psuedoscientific push by almost everyone to convince the world weed is practically harmless, when it’s definitely not. Homelessness exploded in Los Angeles in exactly 2016 when weed was officially legalized. For some reason, people refuse to even look into a possible connection. They think the idea is absurd. It’s Strange.
        aaomidi 6y ago
        Imagine being this confidently incorrect. Correlation does not imply causation. Looks like our education system has failed us once more.
        throwaway8581 6y ago
        I don’t know much about LA homelessness, but I have plenty of experience with stoners smoking away their opportunities.
        detritus 6y ago
        Conversely, two of the richest and most successful friends I have have been chronic weed smokers for over twenty years. I've seen people go off the deep end with weed, but I can always discern patterns of behaviour that would lead to them doing so that are more to do with existing personality constructs than the weed itself, specifically. As with everything - moderation and self-awareness is key. - ed well, not 'chronic' - regular daily smokers. That IS the difference, I find - people who think it's acceptable to 'wake and bake' tend not be so good at grasping at opportunity. But that's on them - same could be said for starting the day with a gin or three.
    - zo1 6y ago
      Just wait till the newly-banned cigarette industry gets into the "marijuana" smoking market.
  - BelenusMordred 6y ago
    > We are also looking to legalise marijuana What a confusing statement. You only just recently had a nation-wide referendum on this issue, a majority voted no, it was not passed. NZ will not try again to legalise for at least a decade or two. Strict Asian countries that currently hang people for weed are more likely to be legally selling marijuana in corner-stores before the Kiwis do. The recent vote made any attempt to change the law in parliament untouchable for a long time, pushing it through would be political suicide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Zealand_cannabis_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Zealand_cannabis_refe...
    - xupybd 6y ago
      That was a non binding referendum. With our current government I suspect they will move to legalize regardless of the referendum results. It would not be the first time they have decided to go against a non binding referendum. I would be surprised if they don't legalize within the next decade.
      - BelenusMordred 6y ago
        > With our current government I suspect they will move to legalize regardless of the referendum results. Adern famously never had a position on the ballot despite later saying she voted yes. I honestly doubt taking such a political risk for little gain is on her agenda. > I would be surprised if they don't legalise within the next decade. Dragged kicking and screaming by international counterparts perhaps. Otherwise I see no one actually willing to do it. Not sure about how it works in NZ but I would love Australia to have non-binding referendums. Even the politicians in support of higly popular issues like gay marriage were terrified of putting it to a referendum, same with Aboriginal recognition in the constitution which has overwhelming bipartisan and public support, everyone is shitscared it likely won't pass the threshold and for good reason. Referendums are basically impossible to pass in oz, a super-majority is a very difficult thing to achieve in a country. Have the feeling the reason they are out of favour now is because it dramatically highlights how much serious electoral power a hundred thousand people in Tasmania/SA wield.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  They've been able to keep the Corona out... If it were up to me we would have started reducing the amount of nicotine in tobacco by 5% a year starting 30 years ago.
  - strogonoff 6y ago
    Tobacco industry would be all over this proposal, as people will just buy more cigarettes. As a thought experiment, raising minimum allowed nicotine contents up to a level where an average person experiences the unpleasant effects of mild nicotine overdose (dizziness and further) without long-term damage is what could actually force some smokers to quit, and more others to never start. That would be a very controversial measure, of course (and those with dedication would be willing to work around it by breaking the container).
  - refurb 6y ago
    Black market in cigarettes will be the result no doubt. People smuggle cigarettes into Singapore for god sakes.
  - dasKrokodil 6y ago
    Although nicotine is poisonous, it's not really what kills smokers. That would be the tar.
    - LinuxBender 6y ago
      One causes cancer, the other causes or contributes to atherosclerosis. [1] [1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3755365/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3755365/
  - anfilt 6y ago
    it's not really the nicotine that's the problem, it's the delivery method.
    - genocidicbunny 6y ago
      Nicotine is a large part of the addiction capability of the delivery method. I think the trouble is that all that limiting nicotine would do is increase consumption (you need more cigarettes to get the same nicotine fix) and thus would actually increase the damage. It needs to be combined with other measures to be effective.
- brailsafe 6y ago
  I think the idea is more to get in there before they're legally allowed to buy them anyway. If they're already addicted, they got them some other way anyway and this makes no claims to make that harder. But if I had to go beg my dad or older sibling every time I wanted to drink (as an adult) I probably just wouldn't do it much and not develop the tendency. You've gotta really want it. That, or the exact opposite happens and it becomes more desirable through exclusivity.
- boxed 6y ago
  ...in the US. Once. For alcohol.
- forinti 6y ago
  You have a point, but maybe cigarettes are different. I have a felling that without social pressure to smoke, there won't be much of a market for them. It must take some effort to start smoking (I have never smoked, it just seems awful to me) and the young people I see smoking do it to look cool.
  - SwiftyBug 6y ago
    I completely agree with you. To me cigarettes are social crutches. Because of COVID-19 I haven't been in social gatherings in a year, so I haven't smoked a single cigarette in a year. The thing is, I didn't just smoke when I was in a social situation. I smoked alone at home as well. But since the reason because I smoke has ceased to exist (social interaction) my cravings also disappeared. I actually fear going back to normal life because I know It's very likely that I'll start smoking again. And it doesn't help having people around me smoking in those social situations. Specially when I have a few drinks.
agilekanban 6y ago
go go!
excalibur 6y ago
> New Zealand has announced a suite of proposals aimed at outlawing smoking for the next generation and moving the country closer to its goal of being smoke-free by 2025. This goal is authoritarian.
- tim333 6y ago
  But more so than banning other drugs? There's a pol here saying support 96.9% https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/10/11/e037362 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/10/11/e037362
throwaway8581 6y ago
Politics is just moral fashion. This is purely aesthetic. Cigarettes and cigarette smoke are icky and gross to politically important groups, especially modern white women. They literally recoil as they pass a smoker on the sidewalk. They put on a whole little histrionic show including an exaggerated grimace of disgust, held breath, etc. “Umm, could you like NOT do that here? Ugh”.
- yladiz 6y ago
  FYI, you could have made your point without being sexist.
  - throwaway8581 6y ago
    It’s not sexist, it’s how it is. Fwiw, women’s strong disgust reaction can be a very socially positive force in many cases. Just like male aggression can be a very socially positive force in many cases. But they have downsides too. Male aggression becomes crime and sexual violence. Female disgust can fuel social ostracism and irrational politics.
nainarb 6y ago
I fully support it
tomhoward 6y ago
"New Zealand has announced a suite of proposals..." It's not a law or even a plan. Just thought bubbles at this stage.
ossusermivami 6y ago
I remember when I stopped (heavy) smoking for a little while I was putting all my craving into alcohol. I did stop alcohol and now I am binge eating instead ! I tried sports and have injured myself pretty bad doing ~100km a week running... Whenever a vice gets tamed another vice rise up....
tablespoon 6y ago
They should do the same for alcohol. It's a public health crisis, killing thousands every year and leading to all kinds of violence and other crimes. /s
tonfreed 6y ago
The duties on smokes here just cause more people to move to black market chop chop. Another example of idiot politicians refusing to address the underlying causes of addiction and instead fellating themselves over how smart they are banning something
ChrisArchitect 6y ago
at this point, I just don't want to see or smell anyone smoking out on sidewalks or anywhere in public anymore - after a year away from it due to pandemic, and also the side notion that smokers standing around blowing smoke out into their surroundings seems to go against any kind of pandemic squashing efforts, it's just not a thing that should be acceptable anymore. It just seems odd to have something where someone randomly imposes that on your fresh air/surroundings at will. and yes, I have experienced the 'old days' of bars and clubs full of smoke etc. Nostalgic times at parties coming out totally stinking of smokey rave grime, but we've all gotten used to that not being a thing by now.

62 points by edward 6y ago

refurb 6y ago

Excellent. We all know how well prohibition works.

xupybd 6y ago
We are also looking to legalize marijuana. I'm not weighing in on either side but I don't see how you can do both.
- detritus 6y ago
  Cigarettes are specifically designed to get you hooked, whereas pot isn't.
  - Udik 6y ago
    And with what are you smoking it? Pure?
    - CamTin 6y ago
      I assume you're asking because people around you tend to smoke spliffs rolled from hash and tobacco. I know this is common in Europe at least, but in the US (and probably elsewhere) it's relatively uncommon and smoking just cannabis flower is overwhelmingly more popular.
  - throwaway8581 6y ago
    This is not true. Cigarettes are addictive because the nicotine in tobacco leaves is addictive, not because they are “specifically designed” to be addictive. They are designed to deliver tobacco smoke, which is addictive.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      Over the many decades, it’s come out that it’s not just the nicotine, but many other additives that are also addictive. The reason is simple: the tobacco companies have an interest in keeping you a customer. Whether that’s a cigarette or vaping flavors, they’ll do it.
  - throwaway8581 6y ago
    I know plenty of people who have thrown away their entire potential to smoking weed. Smart, young people who instead of developing their skills, making friends, doing well in school, advancing their career, and dating, just sit around and get stoned all day. In my mind, the effects of weed are worse than tobacco. Sure, cigarettes will kill you at 60, but weed will turn you into a lifelong loser at 15.
    - Flatcircle 6y ago
      Very underrated point. We’ve all seen this, don’t know why there’s some psuedoscientific push by almost everyone to convince the world weed is practically harmless, when it’s definitely not. Homelessness exploded in Los Angeles in exactly 2016 when weed was officially legalized. For some reason, people refuse to even look into a possible connection. They think the idea is absurd. It’s Strange.
      - aaomidi 6y ago
        Imagine being this confidently incorrect. Correlation does not imply causation. Looks like our education system has failed us once more.
        throwaway8581 6y ago
        I don’t know much about LA homelessness, but I have plenty of experience with stoners smoking away their opportunities.
        detritus 6y ago
        Conversely, two of the richest and most successful friends I have have been chronic weed smokers for over twenty years. I've seen people go off the deep end with weed, but I can always discern patterns of behaviour that would lead to them doing so that are more to do with existing personality constructs than the weed itself, specifically. As with everything - moderation and self-awareness is key. - ed well, not 'chronic' - regular daily smokers. That IS the difference, I find - people who think it's acceptable to 'wake and bake' tend not be so good at grasping at opportunity. But that's on them - same could be said for starting the day with a gin or three.
  - zo1 6y ago
    Just wait till the newly-banned cigarette industry gets into the "marijuana" smoking market.
- BelenusMordred 6y ago
  > We are also looking to legalise marijuana What a confusing statement. You only just recently had a nation-wide referendum on this issue, a majority voted no, it was not passed. NZ will not try again to legalise for at least a decade or two. Strict Asian countries that currently hang people for weed are more likely to be legally selling marijuana in corner-stores before the Kiwis do. The recent vote made any attempt to change the law in parliament untouchable for a long time, pushing it through would be political suicide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Zealand_cannabis_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Zealand_cannabis_refe...
  - xupybd 6y ago
    That was a non binding referendum. With our current government I suspect they will move to legalize regardless of the referendum results. It would not be the first time they have decided to go against a non binding referendum. I would be surprised if they don't legalize within the next decade.
    - BelenusMordred 6y ago
      > With our current government I suspect they will move to legalize regardless of the referendum results. Adern famously never had a position on the ballot despite later saying she voted yes. I honestly doubt taking such a political risk for little gain is on her agenda. > I would be surprised if they don't legalise within the next decade. Dragged kicking and screaming by international counterparts perhaps. Otherwise I see no one actually willing to do it. Not sure about how it works in NZ but I would love Australia to have non-binding referendums. Even the politicians in support of higly popular issues like gay marriage were terrified of putting it to a referendum, same with Aboriginal recognition in the constitution which has overwhelming bipartisan and public support, everyone is shitscared it likely won't pass the threshold and for good reason. Referendums are basically impossible to pass in oz, a super-majority is a very difficult thing to achieve in a country. Have the feeling the reason they are out of favour now is because it dramatically highlights how much serious electoral power a hundred thousand people in Tasmania/SA wield.
Gibbon1 6y ago
They've been able to keep the Corona out... If it were up to me we would have started reducing the amount of nicotine in tobacco by 5% a year starting 30 years ago.
- strogonoff 6y ago
  Tobacco industry would be all over this proposal, as people will just buy more cigarettes. As a thought experiment, raising minimum allowed nicotine contents up to a level where an average person experiences the unpleasant effects of mild nicotine overdose (dizziness and further) without long-term damage is what could actually force some smokers to quit, and more others to never start. That would be a very controversial measure, of course (and those with dedication would be willing to work around it by breaking the container).
- refurb 6y ago
  Black market in cigarettes will be the result no doubt. People smuggle cigarettes into Singapore for god sakes.
- dasKrokodil 6y ago
  Although nicotine is poisonous, it's not really what kills smokers. That would be the tar.
  - LinuxBender 6y ago
    One causes cancer, the other causes or contributes to atherosclerosis. [1] [1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3755365/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3755365/
- anfilt 6y ago
  it's not really the nicotine that's the problem, it's the delivery method.
  - genocidicbunny 6y ago
    Nicotine is a large part of the addiction capability of the delivery method. I think the trouble is that all that limiting nicotine would do is increase consumption (you need more cigarettes to get the same nicotine fix) and thus would actually increase the damage. It needs to be combined with other measures to be effective.
brailsafe 6y ago
I think the idea is more to get in there before they're legally allowed to buy them anyway. If they're already addicted, they got them some other way anyway and this makes no claims to make that harder. But if I had to go beg my dad or older sibling every time I wanted to drink (as an adult) I probably just wouldn't do it much and not develop the tendency. You've gotta really want it. That, or the exact opposite happens and it becomes more desirable through exclusivity.
boxed 6y ago
...in the US. Once. For alcohol.
forinti 6y ago
You have a point, but maybe cigarettes are different. I have a felling that without social pressure to smoke, there won't be much of a market for them. It must take some effort to start smoking (I have never smoked, it just seems awful to me) and the young people I see smoking do it to look cool.
- SwiftyBug 6y ago
  I completely agree with you. To me cigarettes are social crutches. Because of COVID-19 I haven't been in social gatherings in a year, so I haven't smoked a single cigarette in a year. The thing is, I didn't just smoke when I was in a social situation. I smoked alone at home as well. But since the reason because I smoke has ceased to exist (social interaction) my cravings also disappeared. I actually fear going back to normal life because I know It's very likely that I'll start smoking again. And it doesn't help having people around me smoking in those social situations. Specially when I have a few drinks.

agilekanban 6y ago

go go!

excalibur 6y ago

> New Zealand has announced a suite of proposals aimed at outlawing smoking for the next generation and moving the country closer to its goal of being smoke-free by 2025. This goal is authoritarian.

tim333 6y ago
But more so than banning other drugs? There's a pol here saying support 96.9% https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/10/11/e037362 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/10/11/e037362

throwaway8581 6y ago

Politics is just moral fashion. This is purely aesthetic. Cigarettes and cigarette smoke are icky and gross to politically important groups, especially modern white women. They literally recoil as they pass a smoker on the sidewalk. They put on a whole little histrionic show including an exaggerated grimace of disgust, held breath, etc. “Umm, could you like NOT do that here? Ugh”.

yladiz 6y ago
FYI, you could have made your point without being sexist.
- throwaway8581 6y ago
  It’s not sexist, it’s how it is. Fwiw, women’s strong disgust reaction can be a very socially positive force in many cases. Just like male aggression can be a very socially positive force in many cases. But they have downsides too. Male aggression becomes crime and sexual violence. Female disgust can fuel social ostracism and irrational politics.

nainarb 6y ago

I fully support it

tomhoward 6y ago

"New Zealand has announced a suite of proposals..." It's not a law or even a plan. Just thought bubbles at this stage.

ossusermivami 6y ago

I remember when I stopped (heavy) smoking for a little while I was putting all my craving into alcohol. I did stop alcohol and now I am binge eating instead ! I tried sports and have injured myself pretty bad doing ~100km a week running... Whenever a vice gets tamed another vice rise up....

tablespoon 6y ago

They should do the same for alcohol. It's a public health crisis, killing thousands every year and leading to all kinds of violence and other crimes. /s

tonfreed 6y ago

The duties on smokes here just cause more people to move to black market chop chop. Another example of idiot politicians refusing to address the underlying causes of addiction and instead fellating themselves over how smart they are banning something

ChrisArchitect 6y ago

at this point, I just don't want to see or smell anyone smoking out on sidewalks or anywhere in public anymore - after a year away from it due to pandemic, and also the side notion that smokers standing around blowing smoke out into their surroundings seems to go against any kind of pandemic squashing efforts, it's just not a thing that should be acceptable anymore. It just seems odd to have something where someone randomly imposes that on your fresh air/surroundings at will. and yes, I have experienced the 'old days' of bars and clubs full of smoke etc. Nostalgic times at parties coming out totally stinking of smokey rave grime, but we've all gotten used to that not being a thing by now.