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@maxerickson That ultimately will be the end game. I'd argue that most of the folks that bought into Bitcoin do not, in fact, share in the an-cap libertarian u

@maxerickson That ultimately will be the end game. I'd argue that most of the folks that bought into Bitcoin do not, in fact, share in the an-cap libertarian utopia of an economy entirely detached from the US Dollar. Folks are going to want their payday, even folks like Michael Saylor and Elon Musk. These guys aren't HODLing for charity. They want to exit before the rest of the peanut gallery does.

almost_usual 5y ago
The utopia is so mind boggling far fetched. Suppose I have a weapon and I want to kill you unless you give me your bitcoin. How do you stop me? You either have your own weapons to defend yourself or go to an authority for help. So unless everyone wants to build their own personal military the end game is the same. All of these arguments boil down to one possibility that could work. Bitcoin somehow brings about world peace, which seems unlikely. Bitcoin as an experimental protocol is interesting, as a serious currency or asset it is an environmentally dangerous joke.
seibelj 5y ago
I philosophically believe, to my core, that one of the greatest evils ever perpetuated on humanity was allowing governments to print money whenever they wanted. With very few exceptions, every single fiat currency has experienced periods of high or extremely high inflation (including USD in the 70s). Giving those in power the ability to dilute everyone else’s wealth and direct new money to their favored people / projects is a major reason why inequality has spiked and everything good in the world (high quality housing, education, healthcare, food) has become very expensive relative to wages. The relatively brief experiment with fiat currencies has been a disaster. We need something like gold (bitcoin) to bring government back into check and reward savers once again.
- SwimSwimHungry 5y ago
  First, I will say, I do agree that fiat does have its flaws, and certainly the Fed is an institution that is run in great secrecy. To that end, why not use actual gold as a hedge? Why reinvent the wheel with a technology that burns ridiculous levels of energy, and doesn't at least have some additional side utility, like how gold is used in electronics or jewelry?
  - seibelj 5y ago
    I fundamentally disagree that mining bitcoin is a “waste”. Bitcoin accomplishes what it takes all governments, their banks, their courts, their payment networks, and a huge amount of human labor and energy to accomplish in a single platform. Secondly, the value that bitcoin provides - an unhackable, incorruptible, un-bannable form of wealth preservation and transfer - is so useful that the energy is worth it. Finally, I don’t play any video games. I don’t watch any Twitch or Tiktok. I honestly think video games as a concept are a waste of time and energy. But I don’t think they should be banned, despite their enormous cost of electricity. Similarly, you shouldn’t advocate for a ban based on electricity use. Just regulate the use of electricity, or don’t be surprised when everything else some dipshit politician hates is banned on the same grounds. And why bitcoin over gold? Gold can’t be sent natively over the internet. It’s expensive to store and transfer. Metal-as-currency is old and bypassed by superior monetary technology (bitcoin).
    - dragonelite 5y ago
      I agree a finite supply to limit the endless ambition of capitalists and imperialists. From what I gathered gold, silver and salt(why your work income is called salary) was used as currencies so empires could fine tune their supply lines and empires better. The bigger the empire and ambitions the more likely coin clipping and debasing took place.
- dragonelite 5y ago
  You need endless printing to finance endless wars.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  While I completely agree with you philosophically, an unbacked, power hungry store of value like bitcoin is not a solution. It's a political problem, let's rise and kick the government and central banking out! David Friedman argues in The Machinery of Freedom to use a currency backed by a set of commodities (wood, iron, etc: a set of resources to stabilise the price). I don't understand why that's not a solution - probably because it doesn't let governments and banks to profit off people easily.

almost_usual 5y ago

The utopia is so mind boggling far fetched. Suppose I have a weapon and I want to kill you unless you give me your bitcoin. How do you stop me? You either have your own weapons to defend yourself or go to an authority for help. So unless everyone wants to build their own personal military the end game is the same. All of these arguments boil down to one possibility that could work. Bitcoin somehow brings about world peace, which seems unlikely. Bitcoin as an experimental protocol is interesting, as a serious currency or asset it is an environmentally dangerous joke.

seibelj 5y ago

I philosophically believe, to my core, that one of the greatest evils ever perpetuated on humanity was allowing governments to print money whenever they wanted. With very few exceptions, every single fiat currency has experienced periods of high or extremely high inflation (including USD in the 70s). Giving those in power the ability to dilute everyone else’s wealth and direct new money to their favored people / projects is a major reason why inequality has spiked and everything good in the world (high quality housing, education, healthcare, food) has become very expensive relative to wages. The relatively brief experiment with fiat currencies has been a disaster. We need something like gold (bitcoin) to bring government back into check and reward savers once again.

SwimSwimHungry 5y ago
First, I will say, I do agree that fiat does have its flaws, and certainly the Fed is an institution that is run in great secrecy. To that end, why not use actual gold as a hedge? Why reinvent the wheel with a technology that burns ridiculous levels of energy, and doesn't at least have some additional side utility, like how gold is used in electronics or jewelry?
- seibelj 5y ago
  I fundamentally disagree that mining bitcoin is a “waste”. Bitcoin accomplishes what it takes all governments, their banks, their courts, their payment networks, and a huge amount of human labor and energy to accomplish in a single platform. Secondly, the value that bitcoin provides - an unhackable, incorruptible, un-bannable form of wealth preservation and transfer - is so useful that the energy is worth it. Finally, I don’t play any video games. I don’t watch any Twitch or Tiktok. I honestly think video games as a concept are a waste of time and energy. But I don’t think they should be banned, despite their enormous cost of electricity. Similarly, you shouldn’t advocate for a ban based on electricity use. Just regulate the use of electricity, or don’t be surprised when everything else some dipshit politician hates is banned on the same grounds. And why bitcoin over gold? Gold can’t be sent natively over the internet. It’s expensive to store and transfer. Metal-as-currency is old and bypassed by superior monetary technology (bitcoin).
  - dragonelite 5y ago
    I agree a finite supply to limit the endless ambition of capitalists and imperialists. From what I gathered gold, silver and salt(why your work income is called salary) was used as currencies so empires could fine tune their supply lines and empires better. The bigger the empire and ambitions the more likely coin clipping and debasing took place.
dragonelite 5y ago
You need endless printing to finance endless wars.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
While I completely agree with you philosophically, an unbacked, power hungry store of value like bitcoin is not a solution. It's a political problem, let's rise and kick the government and central banking out! David Friedman argues in The Machinery of Freedom to use a currency backed by a set of commodities (wood, iron, etc: a set of resources to stabilise the price). I don't understand why that's not a solution - probably because it doesn't let governments and banks to profit off people easily.