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I still see absolutely no benefit in using Matrix compared to other open source options. The only thing they have going for them is they sure spend a lot of mon

I still see absolutely no benefit in using Matrix compared to other open source options. The only thing they have going for them is they sure spend a lot of money on marketing and PR.

fastball 6y ago
What are the other open source options with Matrix's feature-set?
- encryptluks2 6y ago
  IRC, XMPP, email, etc. Please also see: https://gitlab.com/libremonde-org/papers/research/privacy-matrix.org https://gitlab.com/libremonde-org/papers/research/privacy-ma...
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    IRC is great, but it most certainly is not at feature parity. XMPP works iff everyone has the right set of extensions, which can work but often doesn't. Email doesn't even solve the same problem (real-time multiuser chat).
    - MattJ100 6y ago
      I think "works iff" is slightly inaccurate here, and "different sets of extensions" thing is overblown (not by you personally, but in general discussions like these). The big problem is actually the opposite: that XMPP continues to work when both parties support different levels of the protocol. Many modern XMPP clients are comparable in features to Matrix clients, but many people still reach for e.g. Pidgin and Adium, despite those not seeing active XMPP development for many years (that is hopefully changing, at least for Pidgin). Despite the evolution of the protocol, these clients are perfectly able to function, just without the modern stuff people expect. Discovering the right XMPP software (and that it exists) is the hard part for users, and that's part of what we're trying to solve with the Snikket project. All decentralized protocols face the difficulty of evolution over time. Email has outlived many attempts to evolve it (but maybe there is still hope with initiatives like JMAP). I'd say XMPP is doing a decent job, and is still evolving. Matrix has yet to really face this issue as it's still relatively young. IRC... I think the majority of its remaining users consider its lack of evolution a feature :)
      - Ruthalas 6y ago
        Can you suggest a well maintained xmpp client? I was partial to pidgin years ago.
        MattJ100 6y ago
        If you like Pidgin I'd recommend https://gajim.org/ https://gajim.org/ - it has a similar feel to the UI, is cross-platform and actively developed. Use it with a modern up-to-date server (see https://joinjabber.org/ https://joinjabber.org/ for some general advice, and https://compliance.conversations.im/ https://compliance.conversations.im/ for testing a specific server).
        rhn_mk1 6y ago
        Gajim is undergoing a UI redesign right now that will make it unlike Pidgin, and with a single window only.
Sporktacular 6y ago
I don't think new features are meant to be the attraction, at least not yet. They seem to want it to become the next email, but for online messaging, voice, video, presence etc. To be an address on business cards. None of those things are new but marketing, a catchy name and a clean start will all help to get wide adoption beyond the tech types. Necessary but not sufficient - some clean, rock solid clients as the face of it all are no less important... and so far they suck.
- worstbranding 6y ago
  Matrix doesn't work as the next email because it doesn't use DNS for address routing, it uses a centralized identity server, by default the one operated by New Vector at vector.im. You can use a different one, but then you can't map human friendly Matrix addresses to Matrix IDs on the public server. Hosting your own identity server creates a diaspora of Matrix networks. I can barely understand how this counts as federation, but I'm sure Arathorn will come tell me why I'm wrong

I still see absolutely no benefit in using Matrix compared to other open source options. The only thing they have going for them is they sure spend a lot of money on marketing and PR.

fastball 6y ago

What are the other open source options with Matrix's feature-set?

encryptluks2 6y ago
IRC, XMPP, email, etc. Please also see: https://gitlab.com/libremonde-org/papers/research/privacy-matrix.org https://gitlab.com/libremonde-org/papers/research/privacy-ma...
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  IRC is great, but it most certainly is not at feature parity. XMPP works iff everyone has the right set of extensions, which can work but often doesn't. Email doesn't even solve the same problem (real-time multiuser chat).
  - MattJ100 6y ago
    I think "works iff" is slightly inaccurate here, and "different sets of extensions" thing is overblown (not by you personally, but in general discussions like these). The big problem is actually the opposite: that XMPP continues to work when both parties support different levels of the protocol. Many modern XMPP clients are comparable in features to Matrix clients, but many people still reach for e.g. Pidgin and Adium, despite those not seeing active XMPP development for many years (that is hopefully changing, at least for Pidgin). Despite the evolution of the protocol, these clients are perfectly able to function, just without the modern stuff people expect. Discovering the right XMPP software (and that it exists) is the hard part for users, and that's part of what we're trying to solve with the Snikket project. All decentralized protocols face the difficulty of evolution over time. Email has outlived many attempts to evolve it (but maybe there is still hope with initiatives like JMAP). I'd say XMPP is doing a decent job, and is still evolving. Matrix has yet to really face this issue as it's still relatively young. IRC... I think the majority of its remaining users consider its lack of evolution a feature :)
    - Ruthalas 6y ago
      Can you suggest a well maintained xmpp client? I was partial to pidgin years ago.
      - MattJ100 6y ago
        If you like Pidgin I'd recommend https://gajim.org/ https://gajim.org/ - it has a similar feel to the UI, is cross-platform and actively developed. Use it with a modern up-to-date server (see https://joinjabber.org/ https://joinjabber.org/ for some general advice, and https://compliance.conversations.im/ https://compliance.conversations.im/ for testing a specific server).
        rhn_mk1 6y ago
        Gajim is undergoing a UI redesign right now that will make it unlike Pidgin, and with a single window only.

Sporktacular 6y ago

I don't think new features are meant to be the attraction, at least not yet. They seem to want it to become the next email, but for online messaging, voice, video, presence etc. To be an address on business cards. None of those things are new but marketing, a catchy name and a clean start will all help to get wide adoption beyond the tech types. Necessary but not sufficient - some clean, rock solid clients as the face of it all are no less important... and so far they suck.

worstbranding 6y ago
Matrix doesn't work as the next email because it doesn't use DNS for address routing, it uses a centralized identity server, by default the one operated by New Vector at vector.im. You can use a different one, but then you can't map human friendly Matrix addresses to Matrix IDs on the public server. Hosting your own identity server creates a diaspora of Matrix networks. I can barely understand how this counts as federation, but I'm sure Arathorn will come tell me why I'm wrong